Swat Flogging and PTI’s Stand

Guest blog by Dr. Arif Alvi Secretary General Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf

REVOLUTION2There has been a lot of sadness and condemnation of the Swat flogging incident. The day on which Mr Imran Khan’s statement was issued by me there were many press reports in Frontier newspapers in which some elements of the Taliban had condemned the incident and others said that the incident happened during the time of total lawlessness and before the peace deal. A sign that most of them were on the back foot and embarrassed, though some are not.

We feel such reactions from within the Taliban kind of people need to be recognized because change for the better and saner would happen from within them and not because of outside pressure. Had force been effective huge US and NATO presence and billions of dollars of resources would have brought about a major change in Afghanistan and Iraq.

We must condemn the flogging incident in un-equivocal terms before we even talk of why such incidents happen and how to prevent them. Some people want a simplistic assessment and easy answers.

Some justify such punishments exist in Islam. I would like to draw your attention to the actual implementation of Hudood punishments by Khulafa-e-Rashideen. Hudood punishments are maximum punishments and like in any crime lesser punishments than Hudood can be given by Muslim Jurists depending on circumstance. During the time of Hazrat Umar, he refused to implement Hudood in the case of theft because of rampant poverty. The Swat flogging did not fulfill even the requirements of any kind of Islamic Court. So it has nothing to do with Islam.

Similarly, as PTI is not a party of Islamic scholars, we do not want to go into discussion on Islamic Fiqh, but we are cognizant of the fact that a lot of anti-woman cultural traditions have found their way into Islamic interpretation in different regions.

Unfortunately we in Pakistan are on the defensive as far as Islam is concerned. Why does such a brutal miscarriage of justice become a platform for discussion on Islam? It has been very rightly argued in our press statement that US brutalities in Afghanistan and Iraq for the cause of freedom and democracy did not focus world attention into condemning democracy because the world believes it was a miscarriage of democracy by Bush and his first world cronies.

There is a genuine fear particularly among secular elements that the Swat deal would hand over Swat to the Taliban who would carry out similar brutal punishments in the garb of Islam. In my opinion this is can only be curbed after peace is restored, some stake in society is offered to the people and the reasons for their revolt against the Khawaneen is also understood. Swat issue has been different. It precedes Osama and 9/11 as their first deal with the government was done in 1994. Saying this does not mean that the PTI is defending Taliban in any manner but we still want to separate wheat from the chaff, otherwise confusion as it is prevalent now or momentary anger may lead us to to knee jerk reaction which will put the country’s very existence in danger.

Please keep in mind that there is no easy solution to our predicament. We feel the best way is to recognize local sentiments and maybe have a referendum in Swat and the NWFP on this deal. In Malaysia some provinces have Shariat as the primary law for Muslims.

None of these situations are ideal but PTI has to think in proactive ways to get out of the mess in which we are. Force, even to establish the writ of state has been argued by some people since before Lal Masjid and PTI disagreed. In all talk shows Mr Imran Khan and I, warned the government on the serious repercussions of such an act, but they went ahead and the result is for the world to see..and learn.

The flogging incident is gory and brutal. Condemn it but like a sane and mature nation, let it not cloud our thinking in how to bring Pakistan to peace. Some have questioned the timing of the release of this video. Makes us suspicious (like Osama statements before US elections). The Pakistan parliament condemned drone attacks and told US to stop. The government went ahead with the peace deal in Swat which was openly condemned by Holbrooke and other US officials. The new Obama package continues drone attacks and does a major shift from Bush doctrine. Now Pakistan is the cause of instability in Afghanistan therefore even Quetta has become an Al-Qaeda center. This is a very dangerous shift.

In this background a two month old video comes out, which shifts the feelings of Pakistanis exactly along American logic. We condemn the flogging, but are suspicious about the timing of release.

We are not pro-Taliban but we insist that US, NATO and ISAF forces should leave Afghanistan and if the majority in Afghanistan want Taliban rule of some sort it is up to them. If we have peace in Pakistan the process of marginalization into Taliban will get less. It is evident that as soon as the peace deal came about Swat came into peace which Pak forces and bombardment could not manage. None of you should have any doubt about the major change. Peshawar had been abandoned by Frontier MNA’s and MPA’s who came back after the peace deal was signed. So for those of us who are not living in Frontier it is easy to insist on armchair ideals, which may not be possible unless a ‘katcha‘ road is also walked upon for some time.

We believe very strongly that if the government abandons this deal it would serve US interests and the new Obama policy. It would also be good bye to Swat and Frontier with no end in sight for the rest of Pakistan. Even those of you who disagree with this thesis please do understand that such judgments are not easy nor very clear. Only time, patience and a people’s resolve to carve their own destiny can salvage the situation in a few years. Restoration of the judiciary certainly scared our enemies who were predicting a Balkanised Pakistan. It has convinced the world that we as a people are here to stay, and we shall never surrender.

42 thoughts on “Swat Flogging and PTI’s Stand”

  1. I agree with PTI's stand on this issue here. This incident of flogging, despite being highly condemnable, brutal and barbaric, is also a bit fishy because of it's timing. Even the secular ANP government has strongly voiced it's doubts about its authenticity and purpose. So would the 'liberals' blame the ANP too now of promoting Talibanisation?

    There is no doubt that these Taliban are also not sincere with Pakistan but as Mr. Alvi said we should not cloud our judgement so easily as there might be a huge conspiracy within.

  2. it is still not very clear.

    question is whether PTI condemns that particular incident or it condemns the flogging as punishment?

    or more precise question is that:

    if flogging is carried out through a trial with fullfilling all the necssary requirements and then a qazi anounces the penalty of flogging, would PTI concur then?

  3. Mr. Alvi wrote;

    1. During the time of Hazrat Umar, he refused to implement Hudood in the case of theft because of rampant poverty.

    2. We are not pro-Taliban but we insist that US, NATO and ISAF forces should leave Afghanistan and if the majority in Afghanistan want Taliban rule of some sort it is up to them.

    =====================================================

    Sear Mr. Alvi;

    I expect a Sec. Gen of a political party be more straight and more knowledgeable. However if you are competing Secty Gurnal of PPP then it is fine.

    1. Your first point reflects your utter lack of Islam and history as well. In Islamic history Hadood laws were never suspended. I don't know who told you, may be some molvi sahib of local mosque with limited knowledge. However imposition of Hadood was very selective. And no one have power to suspend Hadood in any circumstance. However the rules for punishing under Hadood are such strict that it is near to impossible to punish under these condition.

    May be you are mixing it with Tazeer – In Umar RA times, only Tazeer laws were suspended when there was drought. As Hadood is concerned, Prophet PBUH repeatedly show his disliking about accusing people and even refused to listen when someone confessed. Present Hadood Laws in Pakistan is just a political manipulation.

    2. Your second statement is more funny : when Imran Khan was supporting dictator and Musharaf began to cooperate with USA, if that time he would have demanded an end to war. We would not have mess we have in hand today. After 10 years of half hearted war, this mess has grown many folds. If tomorrow USA decides to leave in next week or so Taliban will sitting in Islamabad. So, what a sweetened deal in favor of Taliban!

    Swat inciden – leave. Imran himself have to condemn "Talibanisation" and their Ideology of forced Islam. I wonder why he was unable to come out and say it loud – other times on every small of big issue he will jum on TV screen! Here I can say JI Ameer has shown some balls and said that he supports Taliban. Imran is still playing flip flop. Oh, we want American out, but in what situation? Handover Afghanistan to Taliban and then they move to Pakistan. Great.

  4. No, PTI and Imran Khan are absolutely wrong! There is no link between the flogging incident and the US drone attacks and military intervention in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is about the abuse of power by the people who have been put in charge in Swat with there nonsensical perverted one-track minds.

    Violence against Pakistani women has no external cause, but only an internal one. Was the incident in Balochistan where women of a family were killed (or burned?) and justified by some members of parliament caused by US intervention?

    This is just a cop out on behalf of Imran Khan / PTI and others who cannot and don't want to recognize the demons of misogyny within our society.

  5. Let us not mix the issues.It is not the case of Shariat nor Islam.

    It is a pure case of dogmatic lifestyle and ignorance of people.

    It is not an isolated case ,this can take place in any part of Pakistan,What happend to Mukhtaran mai ?What happened to five women?

    These are not isolated cases ,this show the lawlessness and psyche of torture and abuse which the ignorance carries with itself.

    I am surprised how people think it is carrying out of Shariat because it is Taliban doing it.

    Ask Taliban memeber to preside over a Islamic conference or deliver a lecture in Jammia Azhar,of course they cannot .

    I am repelled by this assumption of people how conveniently they have accepted Taliban as authority on Islam.

  6. Agreed with Dr.Alvi's point of view,and yes there is definately link between Drone attacks,brutal flogging and all terrorism going on in this country.

    Before 2004 we donot have suicide bombings,and we donot have Taliban groups in Pakistan.

    So all this is interlinked.

  7. Imran Khan demands sharia or not…..Imran Khan condemns Flogging or not….does it matter?? who really cares if Imran Khan do these things or not….wht matter is those kind of incident shuld not happen…thts it…Islam will never allow such things….I dont know whether any khalifa has suspended some laws or not…but still these things cannot be tolearted…touching a woman is not allowed in any case (except for an emergency case i believe), punishment of woman in such a way shudnt be in public with all man watching a girl laying down backwards…..wht nonsense we are taking that Imran khan or any other political leader condemn it or not….we have to see is it right or wrong…

  8. To Asif Sheikh!!!

    "This is about the abuse of power by the people who have been put in charge in Swat with there nonsensical perverted one-track minds".

    I cannot believe the lack of research on your part. Do you know anything???

    The people put in charge of swat via the peace deal i.e Theirik-i-Nifiz-e-Mohamadi(TNSM) have not carried out such act, nor have the newly set-up Qazi courts over there given this decision. this act was carried out by Therik-e-Taliban (TTP) & was carried out before this peace deal came into effect. Even the local news channels gave out this info…

  9. @ Arif Alvi

    Could you please tell us, what's the stand of PTI about Talibans ?

    Are they bad guys ?

    Are they just reactionaries ?

    Are they CIA+RAW agents ?

    Are they real Mujahadeen ?

    Would appreciate if you reply to my questions precisely.

  10. did you actually see that what i am looking?

    now the news are started coming.

    this whole process is nothing but a smear campaign to sabotage the swat deal with outstanding display of media power.

    some body picked a camera,assigned actors and actoress with a well written script and excusitely directed the whole show and the result……

    i am impressed.

  11. @ Alvi Sb

    Could we have answers to the following questions please

    1- When did PTI organize a rally led by IK to condemn Talibans crime against humanity in Pakistan ? Please tell me place and date.

    2- When did IK arrange a press conference, whose sole purpose was to condemn Talibans? Date and place please.

    3- When did IK visit Fata and Swat to show solidarity with victims of Talibans there? Tell me date please.

  12. What political standing has Imran Khan got? It is clear that political pygmies like Imran Khan are like chance takers and try to take on the crutches of populist beliefs to get heard. First he supported Talibinization and terrorism, and now he is crying over the outcomes. PTI is nothing but a directionless pack of morons which is anything but a political party.

  13. Reasoner – When did MQM condemn the killings of innocent people in May 12 and April 9 – to today stand and innocently condemn the SWAT flogging incident and label THEM as terrorist

    Terrorists are here in the form of MQM – forget about Pathans the bigger pigs are MQM goons who are taking Karachi down the path of Pathan vs Muahrjir riots aptly named MQM vs Pathan riots

    And yes MQM cyber wing is being deployed at this very moment in the form of Reasoner and Asif Sh to merely ransack this post – ;) have fun guys

    MQM wallon Jallo Saroo

    Idiots for once talk about PAKISTAN and not draw battle lines around ethnicity

  14. @Unaiza

    Very well said !

    @Dr. Arif Alvi

    I'm wondering where are you ?

    I'd really appreciate if you come up with some logical and sound replies to my question instead of rhetoric !

  15. @MQM Cyber wing at work

    Could you please show me where did I claim to be an MQM activist ?????

    I'm certainly not impressed by your rants, and quoting below a definition for you and your likes

    —-"Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument (personal attack) in an attempt to discredit the argument. It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it."—-

    I would really appreciate if Mr. Arif Alvi the GS of PTI gives advise to members of PTI and IK-lovers to show some etiquites while engaged in a discourse on a public blog !!!

    I would also appreciate if bloggers avoid Ad hominem argument and instead come with some rational arguments !!!

  16. During the time of Hazrat Umar, he refused to implement Hudood in the case of theft because of rampant poverty. The Swat flogging did not fulfill even the requirements of any kind of Islamic Court. So it has nothing to do with Islam.

    =========================

    Hudd should be started from Bayparda Shireen M Mazari because in Imran Khan's Ideological Khilafa State no women should behave like Shireen M Mazari and she should stop trimming her hairs immediately and must restrict herself to her home instead of roaming around with Strangers [Ghair Mard]

    This tradition from Kunzul Ammal which PTI has quoted before quoting weak hadith Imran Khan should start a crash course of Hadith by start reading these books:

    1 – Great Collection of Fabricated Traditions (Arabic: Al-Mawdu’at al-Kubrah) by ibn Al-Jawzi, 2 – Mauzuaat-e-Kabeer by Mulla Ali ibn Sultan al-Qari, 3 – Saheeh al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer and Da’eef al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer, both by Shaykh al-Albaani, 4 – Irwa’ al-Ghaleel fi Takhreej Ahaadeeth Manaar al-Sabeel, also by al-Albaani, 5 – Al-Talkhees al-Habeer fi Takhreej Ahaadeeth al-Raafa’i al-Kabeer, by al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar al-‘Aqsallaani, 6 – Nasab al-Raayah fi Takhreej Ahaadeeth al-Hidaayah by Haafiz al-Zayla’i, 7 – Tuhfat al-Ashraaf bi Ma’rifat al-Atraaf by al-Haafiz al-Mazzi, 8 – Great Indian Scholar Muhammad Tahir Patni books e.g. “Tadhkirrah al-Mawdoo’aat Wal-Dhu’afaahas

  17. Furthermore, Mr Imran Khan should bring back his sons to Pakistan [if they are living there] because Imran often lambast at UK for its rule in War on Terror. As per Imran Khan's ideological Welfare Islami Caliphate type of state forbids Muslim to even live in land from where Muslims are being attacked. Just stop exploiting Islam for the sake of Politics, and try to follow these verses and hadith [for those who have Islamic Itch for Shariah Law]

    The Post may please be read in the context of the Deviant Ideologies of Political Islamists Type of Muslims living in Anglo Saxon Based Secular Democratic Countries of the West:

    Democracy: meaning rule by the people for the people not as per Islam through Quran and Sunnah.

    Undoubtedly the democratic system is one of the modern forms of shirk, in terms of obedience and following, or legislation, as it denies the sovereignty of the Creator and His absolute right to issue laws, and ascribes that right to human beings. Allaah says:

    Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers. Allah hath revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who hath commanded you that ye worship none save Him. This is the right religion, but most men know not. [YUSUF (JOSEPH) Chapter 12 - Verse 40]

    The decision is for Allah only. [AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK) Chapter 6 Verse 57]

    So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD) Chapter 5 - Verse 49 and 50]

    In one of his post in another thread of New Age Islam, Mr Bashir Syed has declared that he is a Mohajir in America [Immigrant in USA]. If he is so concerned about Muslims and Islam then he should follow Quran and Hadith and return back to Pakistan. Please review your stance as per Quran and Hadith [which all Muslim claim to follow and exploit] regarding Living in a Non Muslim Country. Those who want to observe Islam, Veil and Islamic Culture should come back and live in Afghanistan and Northern Areas of Pakistan.

    Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah's earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein? As for such, their habitation will be hell, an evil journey's end; [AN-NISA (WOMEN) Chapter 4 Verse 97]

    Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen [Polytheists].” [Sunnan Abu Dawood]

    It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

    Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

    Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

    This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there. Fath al-Baari

    For example:

    If you want to live in the West then follow their Law and don't complain about Prohibition of Veil, dont raise hue and cry when someone amongst them use 'Freedom of Expression' to practice Homosexuality and Lesbianism openly [what do you think when an underage or even adult Muslim male or female watch these acts of Hedonism? Wont this effect him or her? Forbidden as per Quran to even go near to those things which lead to Adultery].

    And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.[AL-ISRA (ISRA', THE NIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) Chapter 17 Verse 32]

  18. I must applaud the discourse being carried out here. First we must all appreacite that its comendable that PTI has indeed come out strong against the Flogging issue.

    The initial press statement issued by PTI was a little vague on the exact position – and I think Dr. Arif's response does well to explain "We must condemn the flogging incident in un-equivocal terms before we even talk of why such incidents happen and how to prevent them" is bascially enough of a response – the other explanation is just a mere clarification

    Reasoner when you argue the issue of Hazart Umar and his dispensation of Justice – it may be disputed but it does not effect PTI's position on the Flogging issue. its just his [Dr. Alvi's] reasoning and explanation – while I see Amir Mughal shed some detailed light into this issue – should help educate us all

    Your second issue of Imran Khan supporting Musharraf and the US in the early days of 2000 – well I cant say much about the other parties who still continued to support the dictatorship of Musharraf and his wheeling and dealing with the US right till the end – which includes parties like PML-Q & MQM. At least his initial two year honeymoon period changed into opposition once he realized that they [& Pakistan] were being taken for a ride.

    Just be a little realistic you cant expect to get all your answers in a mouthful

  19. Most of the people criticizing Baitullah Massood, are getting paid upto 7.5Billion Dollars.

    What is BM getting paid ? none ?

    So why should i believe people from Pakistan's govt who are sold out to corrupt Christian countries ?

  20. Sam, don't be an idiot. Baitullah Mehsud, through 'donations' from Arab countries, the drug trade and smuggling, makes a fuckload of money. His operating budget for Waziristan alone is Rs 3 billion, and that's only the money we know about. So save the BS about Mehsud getting paid nothing.

    And I'm not sure if your ridiculous assertion of our government selling out to "corrupt Christian countries" deserves a response.

  21. while I see Amir Mughal shed some detailed light into this issue – should help educate us all [Arshad Mian]

    ========================

    Sir,

    I dont have and no Muslim should have any problem with the Shariah. But my only question is this that if we want Shairah Law in Pakistan then which Shariah would it be:

    1 – Sunni,

    2 – Shia,

    3 – Deobandi,

    4 – Barelvi,

    5 – Ahle Hadith

    6 – Shariah made in Islamabad i.e. a Perverted Mix of Fiqah-e-Hanafiya and Fiqh Jaferiyah with minor spray of Pakistan Ideology and that too with a Mix of Anglo Saxon Courts/Parliament. CJ Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry had dismissed the Hasba Bill of MMA [Deobandi-Barelvi-Shia-Jamat-e-Islami] and the same parties including PTI were in forefront to restore the Judiciary Movement. People from the same movement are the people who circulated this video, Ms. Samar Minallah is the sister of Mr Ather Minallah Former spokesman of Mr Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry, and this groups was supported by a Journalist who has a Knack for Islam i.e. Ansar Abbasi, who writes something different in Daily Jang and file entirely different story in the News international and he was supported by the same Secular Activists like Ms. Tahira Abdullah but the same Ansar Abbasi files stories that the video was genuine and work of those who have ulterior motives. I ask why dont he file a story against Samar Minallah and suo moto notice taken by his alleged hero CJ Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry if Ansar Abbasi is so concerned about Shariah.

    I thinks its Samar Minallah [Restore the Judiciary Movement]

    Flogging in Swat outrages nation: Video captures girl’s agony Dawn Report Saturday, 04 Apr, 2009 | 04:00 AM PST
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-

    Speaking at a press conference in Swat, provincial Minister Iftikhar Hussain said the incident had taken place on Jan 3, 45 days before the signing of the peace agreement.

    He alleged that an NGO activist, Samar Minallah, had released the video as part of a conspiracy. He said her brother had been a provincial minister in the government of Gen Pervez Musharraf. “Where were these people when innocents were being slaughtered and bodies were pulled out of graves.”

    Swat video is genuine, claim activists By Usman Manzoor

    Sunday, April 05, 2009

    http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?I

    Suddenly Ansar Abbasi become a Mullah while loving towards ANP completely forgetting the past killing of Samia Sarwar and involvement by Senator Ilyas Bilour of ANP in 1999. Bilour threatened Asma Jehangir and Hina Jilani for protecting Samia Sarwar.

    I wonder did Ansar Abbasi checked before filing the reports in Jang and The News International that Video were fake, that it was distributed by the sister of Mr Ather Minallah. Why disn’t Ansar Abbasi file a news report on Ms. Samar Minallah? Why this double standard, read the news on Ansar Abbasi from the same newspaper where he works [The News International/Jang] and read it is same crowd who circulated the video of Flogging with whom Ansar Abbasi was very chummy. Protestors are very those people who were with Ansar Abbasi in his time of distress. Ansar Abbasi never flinched to file reports on honour killing but now he is asking twenty questions giving the references of Quran and Hadith. Stop using Religion for petty politics.

    Journalists protest threats to Ansar Abbasi Wednesday, January 07, 2009 Our correspondent Islamabad

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=156

    The protests against the vilification campaign and death threats to the Editor Investigations

  22. Aamir, your questions regarding which brand, form or type of shariah should be imposed is well in place.

    I am not scholar but as far as I know the process of ijtama' and ijitihad etc (main pillars of interpreting and implementing islamic shariah in any era and for any society) has literally stopped since 12hth century A.D.

    Hence when anyone from PTI talks about Shariah, I believe and I hope that the intention of this moderate and predominantly centrist party is to invest with the help of moderate, real and authentic scholarly research of interpreting the most undisputed laws of Islam.

    Most (not all) of the difference between the various sects are useless disagreement over petty matters such as how many mustahibs there are in a salat etc etc. Even if we assume that all these sects have disagreement over 99% matters of everyday life, it is still possible to implement a refined and modern and moderate rules of law to help create Islamic welfare state in Paksitan.

    It is easy for you and me to sit on the sidelines and criticism. Criticism and cynical questions is what we do often.

    Perhaps its about time we start to answer the questions (such as the rhethorical questions raised by you) we ask ourselves (especially if we do cliam to be muslims and if we cliam to accept the notion that islamic law should be imposed in the islamic republic of paksitan).

    If we seek answers, and keep an unbiased, never-say-die approach to seeking truth, I am sure success will be on our side at the end of the day.

  23. PTI and Imran Khan speak about sovereignty, then what right do they have to make demands on behalf of the Afghans? Do they realize how hated we are by the general Afghan population (and with good reason, I might add). Afghans don't want foreign meddling in their country, like we don't want Americans making our policy. I have heard Pakistanis argue that we have no choice but to 'intervene' in Afghanistan because that country is a mess, well the world things the same of us.

    Secondly, the question about religion being brought into discussion. Religion comes up because Taliban claim to represent religious virtue. Pakistan is not engaged in a national discussion about entertainment or sports, we are being bombed, killed, flogged, and having our throats slit by people who claim to do it in the name of religion. How is it possible to talk about this without bringing religion into it? The author brought up seculars, I think it is us, the religiously minded, who need to be deathly afraid of what is being done in our name. Further, we have less to fear from the Taliban and more from those who enable them and defend them.

    MAZHAB K JO BYOPARI HAIN,

    WO SAB SE BARI BEMARI HAIN,

    WO JIN K SIWA SaB KAFIR HAIN,

    JO DEEN KA HARF-E-AKHIR HAIN,

    IN JHUTE AUR MAKKARON SE

    MAZHAB K THEKEDARON SE

    MAIN BAGHI HON MAIN BAGHI HON

    —-

    Ashiq hoi Rab da teh hoi malamat LAkh

    Lokhi Kafir Kafir akhde tu aho aho aakh

  24. Secondly, the question about religion being brought into discussion. [Shahbaz]

    ============================

    Dear Shahbaz Sahab,

    I am confused with the insignia of Revolution which is given above depicting a very Secular Fist.

    I hope that Imran Khan and Respected Arif Alvi have not been reading Syed Qutub, Hasan al Banna and Jamaluddin Afghani because as per several leading Islamic Scholars of Saudi Arbia [I have taken the name of Islam because Imran want Khilafa] have so thoroughly ripped apart these Ikhwani Revolutionaries on their deviant modus operandi of Revolution having based on Socialism, Marxism and Fascism while mixing it with Islami Shariah and this slogan of revolution caused great upheavel in Egypt [senseless violence and killing of innocent people] . Go through the posts you may what I am getting at.

    DESTRUCTIVE IDEOLOGIES OF [Mawdoodi, Qutub, Banna and A RAFIZI Jamaluddin Afghani] PUTTING MUSLIMS IN DOLDRUMS:

    1 – Militant Political Islam: Syed Qutub – I

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/militant

    2 – Militant Political Islam: Syed Qutub – II

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/militant

    For more details on these Deviant Anarchists who want "Islamic Revolution" in Muslim Countries through violence:

    Anarchy of HIZB UT-TAHREER & AL MUHAJIROON – 1

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/11/anarchy-

    Anarchy of HIZB UT-TAHREER & AL MUHAJIROON – 2

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/11/anarchy-

    Regards

  25. Secondly, the question about religion being brought into discussion. Religion comes up because Taliban claim to represent religious virtue. [Shahbaz]

    =============================

    Dear Shahbaz Sahab,

    I have watched with my own eyes that Imran Khan used to enjoy the Qawwalis of Late. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Imran should immediately throw all CD in dustbin because Islamic Khilafa if based on Taliban Ideology then following could be under ban.

    Qawwali – Innovation – Bida'at.

    Moharram Processions – Do you need my comment [PTI's Shia member should join TNFJ]

    Milad Procession – Do you need my comment [PTI's Barelvi workers should stop celebrating it or join Sunni Tehreek - Koonday and Nazar Nayaz - uhn Haram]

    Data's Shrine – Remember Rehman Baba's Shrine

    List goes on and on…

    Welcome to the world of Taliban or Islamic Khilafa made by Imran Khan

  26. For Unazia Fatima:

    Calling others morons doesnt make them so.

    All the other parties are so full of direction, right? Yes, I agree, we all know how much dedicated they are in their goal of robbing Pakistan.

  27. Dear Ali Mustafa

    "I cannot believe the lack of research on your part. Do you know anything???

    The people put in charge of swat via the peace deal i.e Theirik-i-Nifiz-e-Mohamadi(TNSM) have not carried out such act, nor have the newly set-up Qazi courts over there given this decision. this act was carried out by Therik-e-Taliban (TTP) & was carried out before this peace deal came into effect. Even the local news channels gave out this info…"

    I'm afraid you misunderstand. It's an abuse of power no matter who is in control and somehow the TTP as you have mentioned obtained power and had the gall to do this under a particular set of circumstances (I understand that the woman who was allegedly given this punishment has denied this…she could have denied under duress or it could be a different person??).

    Regardless, it is remains very surprising that people would try to find an external cause for this (i.e. the american drone attacks) and excuse it out hand by suggesting that we should tackle american intervention first. That is absolutely wrong. The fact is, that even if the americans stop, violence against Pakistani women will continue under various guises.

    Furthermore, people who stop short of condemning the acts of the taleban or alqaida or the unidentified suicide bombers attacking innocent civilians because of some fideistic need to put blame on american imperialism have no will to challenge the uglier aspects of their theologies and ideologies. There is more than one way to resist imperialism and live a God-conscious life than the ways provided by the Taleban and alqaida.

  28. The people put in charge of swat via the peace deal i.e Theirik-i-Nifiz-e-Mohamadi(TNSM) have not carried out such act, nor have the newly set-up Qazi courts [Asif Sheikh]

    =========================

    Dear Asif Sahab,

    Go to the Daily Dawn and The News International or other newspaper library and check for event after 9/11 and events after American Attack on Afghanistan and you may find that this Deviant Anarchist Sufi Muhammad took with him 4000 young men into Afganistan to fight against USA and in the end he returned back alive whereas there is no trace of 4000 innocent young boys of NWFP. The most strange thing is this that not a single family member of Sufi Muhammad was involved in all this and when he returned back General Musharraf [when Imran Khan was playing frineds with Musharraf] didn't take any action rather Musharraf put him in jail and quietly. I challenge you to go to the Dawn and The News building and check old files from 911 till the end of 2002 and you may found amazing thing particularly Imran Khan's Love Affair with Mr Musharraf.

  29. I wonder Why Arif Alvi needs to issue Imran Khan statement ?

    Why he didn't issued the statement directly ?

    Imran Khan needs a person like Arif Alvi(So Called Liberal) to issue his statement as he don't want his Mullah inside to be disgrace by issuing the statement by himself.

    Can any PTI member or Mr Arif Alvi tell us WTF is this ?

    http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/7d125352d

  30. Dear Aamir,

    The quote from my post was not written by me but by another poster. I was commenting on that poster's comments that the flogging act was not done by TNSM etc.

    I'm not too fond of the TNSM, Sufi Mohammad and the rest of the jihadis either. But I do think that those of us from the middle class who are perceived to be the "westernized elite" and call for modern human rights need to marginalize these groups by effectively formulating strategies to confront american imperialism (I say this as an american-muslim who loves his country) and a wholesome religious life so that the average person doesn't get blinded and duped by the rhetoric of Sufi Mohammad, etc.

  31. @shahbaz

    Well done dear! Keep it up!

    The video of Swat flogging is a true epitome of the barbarism being inflicted on the women in Swat in the name of Islam. Fascists of any type are wont to choose a weak segment of society to terrorize the whole nation into submission: The Nazis in Germany chose Jews, the extremists in Pakistan, the Ahmadies and Shias and the Taliban now have selected women to do the same.

  32. The quote from my post was not written by me but by another poster. I was commenting on that poster’s comments that the flogging act was not done by TNSM etc.

    =======================

    Dear Asif Sahab,

    Complete background with dates and newspapers is as under and by the way two nes articles in the post below were of those days when Mr Ansar Abbasi used to work in Daily Dawn, enjoy.

    Maulana Sufi Muhammad and Martial Law of General Pervez Musharraf

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/04/maulana-

  33. Dear Alvi Sahab,

    Remove the Comment by Aamir Mughal on April 8, 2009 @ 3:07 am because I have posted the post in my above post in the shape of blogpost. Sorry for the trouble

    Regards

  34. foolish people like above are condemning the "flogging case". Does anyone actually knows when and where it took place? Who is the girl? Who is the flogger and who was the qazi?

    please read Ms Ridlay's (the British journalist) book she wrote after her conversion to Islam after remaining captive of talibans. She has exposed the drama first created by anti Islam elements to malign Islam and Talibans by showing repeated video images of women in Burqa being beaten by sticks because their feets were visible. Is she not to be trusted?

    Till the time the whole incident is brought to surface we should refrain from commenting it particulerly in the issues related to Islam and Islamic laws.

    By the way how many of those who have been noldly commenting on the issue, have studied Holy quran with meaning with the intention of understanding? I hope their are many but Allah Knows the answeer.

    Any comment that is made by a muslim who says any thing against "Hudoodullah' goes out of Islam. Because this is a binding upon every Muslim.

    Be CAREFUL about commenting on the issue without knowledge.

  35. Ansar Abassi's reaction on Flogging and LHC JUDGE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=109XWRm3-1o

    Mufti Ansar Abbasi's Favourite NON-PCOED JUDICIARY differ with Mufti Ansar Abbasi [The News International/GEOTV/JANG] and wait for Fatwa of apostasy from Mufti Ansar Abbasi against the learned Judge.

    Girl’s flogging not true picture of Islam, says LHC judge By Our Reporter Sunday, 12 Apr, 2009 | 05:08 AM PST

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-

  36. @ some of the comments are sheer hypocrisy,

    first American Talibans are created, by US/PPP !

    then they support it,calling these fakes "Taliban" !

    then they support the fake "Nazam-e-adl "! as a success!

    then start condemning flogging done by the same fakes,

    then they criticise Islamic Laws or sharia,

    and now blame it all on Taliban, infact attacking Islam,

    which was their goal right from the beginning !

    what a bunch of English speaking donkey seculars.

    ANP's coffin is ready to be cremated !!

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