Prophets, protests and holocaust

Anyone who’s been on Youtube or Facebook or Blogs in general knows that no intelligent conversation can take place between two Internet-commenters. It’s like the paralympics being hosted on the Interwebs. Even if you win, you’re still retarded. During the last fortnight, ever since this unfortunate drawing contest issue caught fire.

I’ve been reading countless accounts of Pakistani Internet users in a variety of rhetoric styles which all sum up to this one thing: ‘they’ are out to get ‘us’ and they have COOKIES! Ok, I’m just joking about the cookies but I can practically hear Mr. Zaid Hamid saying in the most Dumbledore-esque voice: ‘I will only truly have left the Pakistani minds when none here are loyal to me’. Most of the Pakistanis today are channeling the same spirit which can only be likened to a mental patient caught between acute psychosis, paranoia and schizophrenia. The bottomline is, had we paid any attention to the course ‘Introduction to Logic-374′ in college, we would perhaps be aware of how absurd all our comments and arguments are. I will try to counter some in this post:

1. Blasphemy is a BIG deal:
Yes it is a big deal but so is tolerance. You are claiming to be the followers of a Prophet who preached that conquering wrath and anger is perhaps the bravest thing a man could do. I’m not a religious scholar but I’m quite sure that the Prophet who himself went to visit an old woman who used to throw garbage at him, the Prophet who only had well wishes for a city which reduced him to blood and tears when Angel Gabrielle stood at his command to just say the word and Taif would be history -that Prophet would not condone such inflammatory reactions in his name.

2. Facebook is a two-faced Jew! :
Many have commented that Facebook deleted a group created to make fun of the Jewish Holocaust. They accuse Facebook of having double standards. They ask that why an Arab cartoonist who drew cartoons of holocaust had to attend several hearings while those who drew caricatures of the Prophet went scot-free? My answer to them would be that probably ’cause a cartoon of the holocaust mocks ‘a people’ -specifically Jews. It sends a message that Jews should be persecuted for being Jew. It says that violence/genocide inflicted on Jews is humorous in some way. It cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality. Why do you expect them to get why we Muslims are so emotional about any depictions of our Prophet when they make fun of their own prophet i.e. Jesus -who by the way, is God for them? There are numerous groups and pages on Facebook that make fun of Jesus/God -Facebook doesn’t delete them either. I’m not saying that making/posting caricatures is OK, obviously as a Muslim I detest it, but I do get how Facebook won’t delete the said pages. Get over it and stop accusing everything that moves as a ‘JEW’!

3. Cause and Effect:
Let’s do a timeline of what happened, I’ll skip the exact details and will stick to the standard terms ‘they’ and ‘us’:

  1. It all started with an attempt to depict the Prophet in a TV show
  2. They were censored, they reacted by starting a whole drawing contest
  3. They wondered if someone would even join their group/page, which was obviously full of hateful content
  4. Then we reacted by avalanching Facebook with groups and pages demanding its boycott
  5. We made noise, forwarded the said pages/groups to every-one-we-knew, hence spreading the caricatures in the process
  6. They were happy for finally getting some attention and the reaction they expected from us
  7. We commented, updated our statuses, sent text messages etc. with more demands to boycott the pages
  8. They didn’t even dignify our demands with a response
  9. We still insisted that Facebook should delete the said pages
  10. They went fishing and got some good catch for the barbecue. They didn’t really care about us.
  11. We came out on the streets with banners and play-cards to protest
  12. They danced into the night, partying hard and drinking some fine fine wine.
  13. We reported the controversial pages again and again and again.
  14. They slept off the enormous hangover from the previous night.
  15. We decided we could no longer take it, so we banned Facebook, Youtube, parts of Wikipedia, flickr, Google.com.pk on and off
  16. They woke up to find that they were able to get a reaction out of the Pakistani Authorities at a National Level. SCORE!
  17. They high-fived and decided to throw another party. Thanks to us now everyone in the world knows about the stupid caricature contest.

Just wake up and stop being so reactive! Maybe tomorrow they’ll have some t-shirts in the name of ‘Freedom of Speech’ bearing the same caricatures and we would all be to blame for it because we are the ones who became the wind to their wings. We turned what was just a silly unreasonable contest into a world-wide phenomenon.

4. Good Decision, LHC :
It’s not about ‘Freedom of Speech’: Well, actually it is! I have the right to browse the Internet uninhibited and the LHC or PTA has no right to take it away from me. I say everyone who supports this ban, should have their 1-year log of Internet usage made public -then they’ll cry about ‘Privacy’ and ‘Universal rights of freedom to information’

5. We win, Facebook is banned:
Ummm… not really -they’ve won. They elicited the exact reaction they wanted from us. They got publicity through us and they even got rid of us. Now we can’t even go and make our presence felt on Facebook that we detest these caricatures. We can’t flood the whole Facebook with Hadiths and Duroods and campaigns to honor the Prophet have been silenced. Like every time in history, we have chosen to mute ourselves when it was time to make our voices heard.

Oh and by the way, they still don’t care: Pakistan Follows Facebook Ban With YouTube Ban

This post was submitted by Fatima Ajmal.

178 thoughts on “Prophets, protests and holocaust”

  1. I just wanted to thank “Teeth Maestro” for his courage and selfless service, much like his eloquent father, who we truly adore. By going out there in public and trying to educate the vocal minority of ignorant (maybe not all illiterate), intolerant, narrow-minded bigots.

    If our Prophet (PBUH) himself left example of great tolerance and forgiveness against those who hurt him, who are all of these yahoos who think they can gain favour, by doing just the opposite ?. They are bringing bad repute on a universal faith, which is meant for all humanity. Not just for those who were born into it.

    Yes, the mischievous jews and christians and what-not will always conspire to gain advantage. Let them. God has made His own plans against them. We should prepare ourselves and defeat them, through reason and logic. By putting-up great examples of humanity and grace, that would inspire and attract non-Muslims to the fold.

    Not the ranting, raving, foaming-at-the-mouth juhla who inspire nothing but pity and disgust.

  2. Thank You Dr Awab for reminding us our mistakes… It was a whole stupid drama and we, instead of thinking of any consequences, giving any logical replies, lost some little exposure we had on the international social media. Banning Social Media is no solution to this issue.. It requires indepth analysis of what went wrong and where? …Instead of taking some action on a governmental level, the common public is made a victim. This shows the severe inability of our present leaders to tackle any modern day issues.

    1. Just wanted to clarify thats its written by Fatima Ajmal, she has a point, that what we also tried to portray, but all said as Muslim and a law abiding citizen of Pakistan who lives under a Constitution of Pakistan which says Quran and Sunnah ar supreme – NO ONE can go in favor of the blasphemous cartoons. I TOO OPPOSE THE BLASPHEMOUS CARTOON NO ARGUMENT THERE, the only debate we were having was limiting the extent of the censorship.

    2. The world does not run according to wish. If you don't like the ban,use other ways to stay up all the time on facebook. I also have no interest to ban facebook but when people are supporting it then why dont you respect the majority?

  3. Awab, I truely agree with what you've said here, it is indeed shameful that we as a nation as ignorant fools.

    We don't respect any of our Islamic values, then something like this comes up, and suddenly we're all so religious.. oh wait, let me rephrase that, we're all so hypocrites. We put up a band, act we're all offended, yet we'd go on doing drugs, drinking alcohol, having sex, in fact, let's ignore all these bigger sins, how about being tolerant or lying, or education, or any other moral values..

    We're not even close being Muslims. Shame on us!

  4. You are not a Religious Scholer as you admitted "I’m not a religious scholar" But yet you make a statement on something you dont know

    You Dont Agree With All of Scholars Of Islam Including All the Prominent Scholars ? You Disagree with Prophet (PBUH) order to Umer (RZ) to kill the Jew who insulted Prophet (PBUH)

    The ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

    The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-

    http://forum.chatdd.com/religions/54002-punishmen

    1. Yes you are right, I was not aware of all the exact references you have mentioned and I thank you for that. But they are using this against us. Their argument is and this is what that cartoonist said which generated the idea for the contest: If we all do it, would they kill us all?

      I don't know under what conditions or context the order was given to execute the said Jew. We cannot simply go on a quest of murdering everyone. Some 77000+ people have 'LIKED' the hateful pages on Facebook and 6000 caricatures have been drawn. Can you tell me the best way to execute all of them other than a war of LoTR-proportions?

      I think we should listen to present-day Ulema. You can read all about how they are calling for peaceful dailogue and not resorting to anger/violence:

      http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/05/21/mui

    2. @Arzoo

      How do you square your quoted hadith with Prophet (SAW)'s magnanimity to his enemies? For example how he reacted to the lady who threw garbage on him or his forgiveness to the people of Mecca on his return with a huge army. These people had wanted to kill the Prophet (SAW), not merely insult him. Time and time again, The Prophet (SAW) won over people with kindness. That is the example that us Muslims should use to defend his honour. Your and others call for violence is turning people away from Islam. Please reflect and stop this.

    3. Let me write sumthin,it won't be worthy coz of my english but had to

      "sum ppl,community don't mind if they get to be rape or they do rape,they like it or they don't like but that doesnot bother them, but if they rape one of us sister?? shud we be quiet? coz its them custum??coz it will more ppl get to know that they are rapin us sister? and they will laugh? they will make fun of us???… yea teeth? yea fatima??

  5. Miss or Mrs Fatima Ajmal,

    Your whole post is expressing one sided mind track & tried cleverly to twist the topics by using general public terms. You are moving in the world of Logics & logic can't be apply here.

    Basically the admin of FB is culprit. I strongly agreed with LHC Decision. Kindly don't use the words durood, ahadiths for your own so called liberal perspective.

    Don't twist the things in your arguments

    1. Kashif

      we both know each other, the debate is to what extent should the censorship be extended, I say not the entire facebook, you differ, agreed, but that does not mean you kill people over it. I vehemently, and my previous posts say that same thing over and over again I vehemently condemn the blasphemous cartoon, as a muslim and as a law abiding citizen of Pakistan – but I was taken aback that despite my repeatedly saying the same thing it is more like an argument if you support Facebook you are a non-muslim.

      Kashif, all our political differences aside, as educated people it cant be that difficult to see the minor difference in the point of view. I was shocked at the Press Club when someone asked me you support facebook, kalimah parha kar saabit karo ;) made me worry, is Islam / or being muslim being reduced to Kalimah / opposing Facebook

      We are on the same side, dont fight amongst us, lets join the battle for the greater good of bringing the owners of facebook to some sort of justice if the violated their terms, the creators of the page, and the poeple who ran this campaign.

      but do understand that we here in Pakistan are with you but condemnt the blanket ban across 100's off websites and that includes facebook [leaving aside the offending pages ie keep the block on the blasphemous pages]

    2. Dear Awab,

      Yes, we know each other and I have a great respect of your analysis, depth of issue understanding and presenting to readers. We were together in struggle of unveiling the true face of Zaid Hamid and fact is that you were the first person who raised the question about ZH links with Yusuf Kazzab. You have a remarkable history against the dictatorship and your efforts about to provide relief to IDPs was impressive and I always admired you.

      Its also the fact since last two weak before imposition of embargo on facebook, you were continuously pointing out about the issue and also pointed out about the shutting down of a page against holocaust.

      But along with your all respect which I have about you, I totally disagreed with your stance on term which you are using "Complete Blanket" and also the statement which you gave in press conference (according to Express Tribune) "Out of proportion".

      My brother, I am also against 'Censorship' like you, but 'freedom of speech' should also needs some "controls" some "SOPs" some "Limitations".

      Do you disagree with fact that thousand of people reported that facebook page as offensive to FB admin but they didn't removed, till may 21 you, me and thousand like us were demanding, protesting, asking for removal. Thousand Muslims responded and engaged in debate with these culprits in a very positive and dignified way. But FB did show any respect of all these sentiments. No Sir ! then why we should show any sympathy with these idiots.

      As far as peaceful disagreement is required its my right, but you should do understand about the common people sentiments. Their associations with Prophet. Immediate reaction with ambiguous tone of press release, with the profile of people accompany you gave different message. I don't want to be personal but just kindly consider what type of people were in your right and left, were they true representative of society? Have you read article of Mr. Kidwai at the demise f Dr. Asrar Ahmed? Can anyone estimate how many young women in Karachi don't take duppata at least, which type of so called Civil society is this ? People will definitely ask you silly questions with this profile of people.

      I am also against the religious extremism and ill-tolerance but simultaneously I am against the Liberal fascist extremism. I am totally disagree with the perception that after banning in Pakistan the following of page has increased tremendously, many surveys have reveled before that European people are in favor of these stupids cartoon.

      Dear Brother ! You are asking me "lets join the battle for the greater good of bringing the owners of facebook to some sort of justice "if" the violated their terms, the creators of the page, and the people who ran this campaign". You are still confused and saying "If" meray bahai they have done the violation and in their countries there is no law to stop them, we can just protest and I understand that LHC decision is perfect and on time.

      I have a GREAT Respect for you and understand that you are a true Gentlemen, but please going for any action please take some consultancy and do some discussion. I believe you did but with the people who were sitting in your right and left, those who have no understanding of Pakistan, Islam and parameters of Ishq-e-Rasool SW . Logic can'nt applied everywhere

      بے خطر کود پڑا آتش نمرود میں عشق

      عقل ہے محو تماشائی لب بام ابھی

  6. Miss Romaisa Mohasin,

    Common public is happy, they supported the LHC decision, only 2% of vocal minority of elite class has problem.

    What "indepth" analysis you are looking for. Madam ! they didn't take any action against thousands of Reports against that blasphemous page.Why? because they don't respect our religious values

    Don't worry after banning FB now u have more time for rest than before

    1. Kashif

      We both know that Facebook was very effectively used to counter ZH – and that too by the same group that is lobbying against it – It did have its benefits –

      I agree 90+% have no clue what Facebook is, but didnt they just hear about it massively since the street rallies started, drew more attention to the 90% of the people – didnt u just blow it really out of proportion – since the ban hit the international media you chucked the 20 lac facebookers, people like you and me [who were working to oppose this group] simply out of Facebook leaving it freely into the unopposed hands of indians and jews to do as they please

      The international hype grew the fan following from a mere 30,000 to 200,000 and grwoing – is that not a bigger disservice. Had it not made the hype and LHC banned only that page – you would have snuck underneath it unnoticed and yet you could have challenged the facebook owners in a court of law to hold them accountable to thie terms of service.

      So again I repeat the logic is not all that skewed, its a minor differing point of view, understand that and lets not get violent upon each other

    2. @Kashif

      in my opinion Dr Awab is a patriotic pakistani and a true Muslim. He doesn't a need any certificate of being a Muslim from anyone. our sentiments shouldn't be up to the extent where we forget to do justice.

      As a matter of fact i was also against the ban of facebook but for other reseans. I wouldn't hesitate to sacrify my life, my family and my childern for my beloved prophet (WAS), it the prerequisite for a Muslim, but i thought we could use that occaion as an opportunity to spread the message of Islam. Through Banning Two million of pakistanis, out of whom 99 percent would be among Aashiqan-e-Rasool were barred from fighting a war of beliefs on the internet, rather the battle field was left for the enemies of Islam.

      However the decision of ban proved a right option as the facebook which removes anything against holocaust within minutes was reluctant to remove the blasphemous pages. However, the ban and subsequent econmic loss made facebook to accept its fault.

      @kashif

      Many of us have read the idiom "Razia Ghondo main Phans Gae" while seeing the photos of press confrence by Dr Sb i said "Razia Khud Ghondo Mein Chali Gaei" as i know that Awab is a nice and sincer guy, the persons sitting at the left [Sbaeen] and right [ Khalid Qidvai] have some designs[ please visit their blogs and you will get aware of their designs]

      Awab!

      Newsline, The News and The express tribune have reported the event, it is neccesary to write a separte post about what realy did you want to say and what happen due to which reasons

    3. talkhaba – point well taken – I agree with you on drafting the real point that needs to be clarified else the menace will continue to run wild

      thank you

    4. Dear Awab !

      I repeat I have a great respect for you and I don't want to be violent. I believe on dialogue but before going into dialogue entry in media is raised many questions.

      May be you disagree with me, as far as I know you along with all minor differences of opinion amongst us, I believe that you are a true Muslim and patriotic Pakistani, but a lobby used you which is not aligned with Islamic values, culture and ruling. They hijacked and misguided you.

      Rallies / protest/ SMS/ mails are a peaceful medium to register our disappointment , boycott is another peaceful medium, what harm if I am peaceful?

      International people / medium should understand our sentiments. Kindly don't compare West values with Muslim values who have no religious or family values, Muslims have strong associations with Islam and prophet SW and can;'t be logical

      لازم ہے کہ دل کے پاس رہے پاسبان عقل

      لیکن کبھی کبھی اسے تنہا بھی چھوڑ دے

  7. I don't know about Miss Fatima Ajmal but i do know about Dr.Alvi and he is trying to show one side of this stury. He tried to do a press conference and all journalists boycotted that and he was attacked by people so he called police to help but they refuse to help all details here http://www.itdunya.com/showthread.php?t=196287

    This ban is according to the Act 2-A of Pakistan constitution and 'Khatam-e-nabuat Act' of constitution

    1. Ahmed – my view point is I CONDEMN THE BLASPHEMOUS MATERIAL outrightly, I questioned the blanket ban – thats debateable with you on how the extent of the ban should be, but to kill each over on the fact that you are supporting facebook, comeon thats not our religion, if some has a differing point of view, you make him sit down and preach, you dont go out with the intention of killing him on it. At the Press Club, Allah ka shukar hai that sanity prevailed, the report you shared is naturally a very irritating version of what did not happen, yes there were heated questions and yes we shared with them our same view point and the press conference closed

      outside someone irked the protestors that I was supporting the blasphemous content and thence forth hell broke loose, lets not reduce ourselves to fighting amongst us for someone who wants to make matters worse. I hope you can understand, I and you can debate, yes as educated poeple, I could be wrong, I might be, convince me, not kill me

  8. @Kashifiat

    How many people did the Jews killed to get Holocaust denial legalized. How many protests, boycotts, strikes did they do in New york, Paris and Tel aviv ?. The answer is none. They took the fight rationally. The lobbied the issue to legislators, took the matter to court instead of streets, that's how they got their voice heard. The religious extreme and the liberal is using its rear end to think instead of their brains. The writer is confused at a few points but has raised some valid points. Freedom of speech is a two way street, if you have no problem creating "zardari kutta" web pages on Facebook. Others will take this freedom of speech to a whole new level. The best censorship is self censorship, if you don't like something don't bitch about it, leave it.

    1. Actually the jewish right is just as crazy & i guess even more so than the right leaning factions in this country. So you can stop with your eulogies of the jews.

      Freedom of Speech has its limits – everywhere in the world. Please name one country that does not practice some form of censorship.

  9. You are entitled to your opinion but I wanted to comment because of the fact that you failed to add the durood ( a simple SAW or PBUH would have sufficed after mentioning the Prophet (peace be upon him). A gross oversight??

    1. Yes definitely, it can only be defined as a ‘gross oversight’ as you accurately point it.

  10. I think the page violated facebook's policy and they should have terminated it like they did for the holocaust page…miss fatima's justification for keeping the caricature page and deleting the holocaust page is weak ("cause a cartoon of the holocaust mocks ‘a people’ -specifically Jews. It sends a message that Jews should be persecuted for being Jew. It says that violence/genocide inflicted on Jews is humorous in some way. It cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality"). if they are sensitive to jewish sentiments they should be sensitive towards other people's beliefs as well. other than that…i agree that the complete ban was an overcompensating and mindless response to the problem.

    1. @Saad: I think Ali just above you has quite nicely summarized it. I don't agree with Facebook at all. I'm just presenting their thought process-that this is probably why they are still keeping those pages. For me even pages that insult Jesus Christ or Lord Krishna or holocaust itself qualify as 'Hateful content', so there is no chance in hell that I would condone something like this. As a Muslim, I detest the caricatures, the silly contest and the intentions behind it.

      The point is even if Facebook is acting so stubborn why are we taking away our citizen's rights. What should have been a better approach was to:

      1. Ban the selected pages which were posting the hateful and blasphemous material.

      2. Run successful campaigns to honor the Prophet on Facebook. We should have enlightened every Facebook user about how beloved and noble our Prophet is. I have seen MULTIPLE groups/pages on Facebook which were doing just that before they got banned too as part and parcel of this violation of our rights.

      3. Every Muslim willingly by his own intention 'de-activating' his/her account. Intentional de-activation sends out a rather different message than what Internet Censorship does.

      You all might find the Indonesian Ulema's decision interesting: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/05/21/mui

    1. Agreed!!!! Would you ignore/forgive someone who draws erotic caricature of your mother ?

    2. I wonder how many Pakistanis apply the same rule of 'if it were your mother' when watching porn. Like always, don't we just love resorting to personal/emotional blackmail. I will choose to ignore your question which is obviously meant to hurt me and elicit a highly heated reaction out of me and that in itself is an answer. I think we can all agree that no one here is condoning the caricatures or blasphemy of our beloved Prophet or any of his Ahl-e-Bayt.

    3. But you are supporting the right of facebook to host it & saying that our government has no right to ban it because there should be unrestricted freedom of speech.

      If we take your example of porn, if tomorrow Geo TV started showing porn movies would you support it in the name of freedom of expression & criticize the government if it bans it? (which by the way one can expect from geo tv right after an interview with zaid hamid & hamid gul declaring the porn industry as a jewish conspiracy against muslims).

      The point is freedom of expression has its limits. That limit is defined by the society that one lives in. And that is true of every society in the world.

  11. i really dont agree with anything the author said, the point about the holocaust denial pages being taken down? what nonsense! The page should have been taken down because it was hurting so many people sentiments, they werent attacking pakistan specifically, but the entire Muslim community of the world, how many jews are there in the world as compared to muslims? so to not hurt about say 30million jews you shut down the freedom of expression of some and you hurt about 1 billion muslims feelings and dont do anything about it because freedom of speech is our god given right? oh and everyone did condemn this and the reason in my opinion to blow this out of proportion was that they i.e the people who were actually doing this should have gotten the clear message that they cant just say anything and do anything and get away with it, FB may have been blocked and i think that sort of censorship is wrong but when such a big community of people cant put an end to whats hurtful to so many then someone needs to take the decision,

    and specifically to the author, blasphemy is a big deal, whatever stupid logic you present it with its the law of Islam, blasphemy is punishable by death. you may not like it cause ur an enlightened muslim and in touch with your sensitive side but thats just how it is,

    I do agree that this should have been ignored and not brought to this conclusion but if we had let it go so easily then this would have happened agai, oh and btw most of the people drawing anything on that page are not jews or christians, most are atheist and agnostic.

    i may not be a in touch with my religion to the level where i can argue the merits and demerits of such an action but i do know this, no one and i mean no one should be allowed to get away with something like this,

    1. I already replied about the Facebook policies & holocaust in '10.1'.

      About your next concern, no one denied the seriousness of blasphemy and no stupid logic was presented to deny it either, unless if you're accusing the Hadiths refered to as 'stupid logic'.

      Then you go on:

      "I do agree that this should have been ignored and not brought to this conclusion"

      I'm so glad we see eye to eye on this:)

  12. I am watching the recents events with sadness and dismay. The religion we all practice is bigger and better than a silly website page. It is not the first time that Islam or Prophet (PBUH) have been insulted. I look back and wonder at the Islamic civilization where thousands of books written by Greek and Roman philosophers were painstakingly translated. Books and literature were translated with open minds and scholarly inquest. Result!! we had a jumpstart over other civilizations. Now rather than logically confronting different view points we go on blocking web pages one by one.

    The architects of such competetion have achieved exactly what they were set out to show. Intolerant and illogical.

    Please dont call me a jewish agent. I am a Muslim and a good muslim, we should ignored the page and shouldnt have given the undue attention.

    1. Amazingly well said "The religion we all practice is bigger and better than a silly website page" we muslims should be united, and not lead ourselves into their trap

  13. i heard on tv that PTA now (after the famous youtube incident) has the ability to block specific pages rather than the entire domain. I wonder why weren't those specific pages blocked? That would've been a much sensibler course of action and seems most people would agree upon it. Wasn't the court aware of this or did they specifically order to block the entire facebook.com + youtube.com?

    1. Saad, its not just about PTA such things call for violence. Think beyond Pakistan dont you think this will cause violence in the west and even India where people are waiting to exploit things.

    2. Saad that is exactly my point – BLOCK THAT particular URL and move on – Zadari had that done on his Shut Up video – the issue was funny – and sparked a political discussion but in short time it died its own death – im sharing the other url as the youtube one we cant access

      http://dbtb.org/2010/02/08/pta-blocks-zardaris-sh

      If PTA could have wanted to be really diligent it could have deployed a team to keep blocking pages where the offensive material was being placed.

      But for now PTA is going berserk at the behest of Latif Khosa who has ordered to block everything because he suspect Jamat Islami wants to use it to topple his government

    3. I'm amazed at u all……the author is insisting its just 'a personality' ……and mr awab is saying yes exactly just like zardari's shutup video case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      who do u think Muhammad pbuh is? or do even think??

  14. Agree with nighat and fatima's comments. And I don't think anyone should or would call you a jewish agent :P

  15. I am not sure if the writer has actually seen the group and caricatures that were published. They were NOT funny, they were ABUSIVE.

    Freedom of speech is one thing but the way I see it such things fall under Unethical category and they should be banned by Facebook as responsible community managers. Such things are direct call for violence. A simple mention of Holocaust is a crime but Abusive caricatures of Prophet are acceptable???? I dont think so!!!

    I was reading a blog on dawn where the blogger said her page was banned by FB management under "invitation for violence", whereas it was just a peaceful demonstration in Karachi. I myself report the Everybody Draw Muhammad group under "invitation for violence" but there was no response from the management. Is that being a responsible community managers….I dont think so!!!!

    I am happy that FB got blocked. It gave facebook management a shock (Read Dawn) and Molly Noris had to apologise (Read Dawn). I am sure it is furting facebook revenues and also other competitors are becoming popular. As a business organisation it should teach them to be more responsible.

    1. Saif – molly norris apologized 5 days before even Lahore High Court raised a finger – but lets not fight over a issue of whodunit –

      The cartoons are out – I have not seen them, whats the game plan – what do we do – how do we prevent it from landing into my email or while I surf. Should we unplug the internet / or do you and I want to defend and stand up to say we are better then the hideous mindless people who disgraced our prophet [pbuh]

  16. I completely agree with Saif bhai over it.

    Facebook should learn some serious business ethics now.I understand dr. awab that what happened with you at the press club is unacceptable in any case but let's put aside our differences and come to solutions of the whole problem rather blaming amongst ourselves.

    regards

    Mani

  17. The article makes a point, but believe me, her tone came off as annoying and haughty.Her very first point is counter-able – if ppl are willing to listen, then conversation is able to take place; this was a situations where people were hyper excited and intolerant, hiding behind the 'freedom of speech'blanket.Freedom of speech doesn't mean you become disrespectful…

    The we come to her title/explanations.

    Blasphemy is a big deal: Yeah, the woman makes a good point, but she fails to realize how big a deal this is. Tolerance is fine, but can't we say how much we're against this? Tolerance doesn't mean we sit there and turn a blind eye. The only thing i'd say is, its fine to say whatever you want as long as Muslims don't stoop down to the level of an ignorant and start swearing or being stupid.

    Facebook is a two faced jew:

    Ha. Did she forget that creator Mark Zuckerberg IS a jew? Why would he care for Jesus, God, Buddha or anything else…? Her argument that the Holocaust is attacking a people is not something i agree with. The Holocaust is GONE,finished, PAST. An EVENT. Whats happening now is an attack on religious beliefs and thats important too. She makes it sound like our beliefs are less then a past event. You can't 'get over' something attacking yr beliefs. Maybe calling stuff jewish is stupid,but having had friends who've experimented on FB by making webpages that say the holocaust did not exist and seeing how quickly the pages came down…that speaks for itself.

    Cause and Effect time line is actually stupid. I agree with it to some extent, but why can't people reply to it, its like she has a problem with people replying to it… If everything else in the world is worthy of discussion,why can't this be something ppl talk about ? So what if it got attention…?Its a religious belief that hurts the sentiments of Muslims the world over. Yeah, i do see her point, if we ignored it, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but there are people out there who have a right to say something against it- free speech goes both ways…the only thing that was done wrong was that, in their anger, a lot of ppl stooped to a level below themselves- using foul language and being slightly threatening.

    The Last two points:

    Ok Seriously, face it, Muslims don't HAVE free speech. Its alllllllll an illusion. In fact NO one has free speech- its too exaggerated or too limited. Now, so far the LHC has banned these sites TEMPORARILY. If the ban becomes permanent, then we have a problem. But lets see, a temporary ban is a form of non violent protest; and the writer is failing to see something;bc the ban does not allow ppl to say something at that moment, hence Pakistan virtually 'ignored' the event and gave it no importance, except that this ban was marketed ALL wrong. So technically the LHC did what the writer wanted.

    If the ban goes permanent, this would be a loss, bc people do need their voice to be heard. However, a little ban wont hurt anyone. Espclly ppl who waste their time uselessly on FB- the 24/7 ppl. A small break wont hurt anyone.

    1. I’m glad you got back to me Fatima… I can agree with you on the ‘Jew-ness’ point, and the whole ‘elimination of human lives thing regardless of religion’- But once again Humanity goes both ways.Part of Humanity is respecting humans; and man have we gone back to the stone age in that regard.
      But the funny thing about facebook – and it has nothing to do with you Fatima, you don’t own Facebook- is that there are pages insulting Muslims (i’m only going to talk about Muslims here because that is the issue) and loads of people bash and talk about how the Israelis are doing a great job exterminating them- thats NOT fair. Someone above mentioned something about self censorship, and dude, to some extent that is right, bc words are hurtful!And once you say them, they aren’t forgotten easily. This is about hurting people’s religious sentiments, and the holocaust isn’t the only genocide. The genocides in Africa and Palestine are ALSO a loss of human life.

      THE OTHER thing Fatima, i might agree with some of your points but the article did come off as haughty and snobby to me- i don’t mean this maliciously, its just how i felt after reading it. [not like i expect you to do anything about it, just feedback]

      Going back to what you said, Internet censorship is not the answer.Agreed.

    2. Thanks for the feedback. Everyone seems to be ticked off about Facebook policies & holocaust. Off course I'm not an impeccable writer or a social commentator. And admittedly I have not played around enough with Facebook's policies. But let me tell you, I have myself made comments on Facebook about calling the holocaust a joke, and blaming it on 'Freedom of Speech' and how their standards are skewed up. I have tangled and debated and wasted countless arguments with non-Muslims about it. But all I learned out of it was that holocaust for them is much greater then any religious personality. Why? Because holocaust means the murder of 6 million Jews. 6 million HUMAN lives! Not Jews -not Muslims -not Christians, but HUMAN lives. The mere loss of 'humanity' is what makes holocaust such a sensitive issue. Whereas a religious personality would only be sacred to the believers of that religion. What they don't understand is how can someone joke about a historical tragedy which cost 6 million lives and expect them to take someone they don't even believe in seriously. It's how they approach it -I DON'T AGREE WITH IT, because I believe that no one should be allowed to ridicule any religion in any way. But I don't own Facebook, do I?

      So my point is, lets not drag the holocaust and Jews into everything because in a practical world, it's not gonna take us anywhere and I'm saying this from my own experience. We need to suck it up and get over their 'Jew-ness'.

      Agreed that as the most popular social network, Facebook should have had more sense and been more responsible and objective. But at least they are right when they say that they usually do not remove pages that insult 'religious figures'. I'm not saying that our beliefs are any less important than the holocaust but WHY expect them to automatically understand this. At least draw parallels accurately when doing comparisons. I was merely referring to the fact, and yes IT IS A FACT, that Facebook does not take down pages insulting Jesus/God/Buddha/Krishna/OR any other religious personality. So, for them this is just like that! Get my point? And I repeat 'for them'… not 'for me'. I've clarified my stance more than once now. I'm all for removing the hateful content -even the ones which target any other religion. Having said this, Internet Censorship in Pakistan, is not the answer.

    3. I agree with you on all accounts -including the point about the snobbishness and the haughtiness. I guess I need to work on it, even as a person -that's just how some of us are and we're not perfect:) But again, thanks for the feedback.

    4. I give you props for being able to handle and take criticism well; many people wouldn't (then again, people make comments that are overly rude to begin with).Peace.

    5. @Fatima: You need to get your record straight on one thing: in many of these western countries that are jumping up & down for freedom of speech, just denying that the holocaust took place is a jailable offense – i am not talking about making fun or mocking which might hurt jewish feelings – but just denying that it took place can land you in jail. Where does the freedom of speech go then?

      The fact of the matter is that bashing us muslims & our religion has become totally acceptable in these countries & they don't even see it as racism or hate speech anymore. Just like it was the case with jews in Europe before the 2nd world war.

      Chomsky, the famous political commentator who is himself a jew by birth but i think an atheist in his believes did a sort of an experiment once. He took a newspaper clipping on arabs from a mainstream US publication & he read it out to his audience but just replaced the word 'arab' with 'jew'. His audience was actually shocked to hear what he was reading out that how could such anti-semitic material be allowed to print. When he told them what he had done, there was a sigh of relief from the audience. Something that Chomsky wasn't expecting & was disappointed to hear. This explains the attitudes the western public has when it comes to bashing muslims & our religion.

  18. The holocaust argument makes no sense. It's about hurting people's sentiments. Double standards exist. Author cannot twist the fact by explaining the difference. In both cases, religious communities are being targetted.

    Regarding fb ,only relevant pages shouldve been banned. There's no point in blocking youtube etc. You cannot stop them from 'provoking' you so it is best to ignore them. This is just the beginning. Expect more in the name of 'freedom of expression'.

  19. Ms Ajmal, is your approach really better?

    "Ban the selected pages which were posting the hateful and blasphemous material."

    Then you may never find out that such material exists, yes? Where will the power of the secret censor stop, then?

    "2. Run successful campaigns to honor the Prophet on Facebook."

    I call that approach, "Death by drowning". This is already, I have read, a problem in Pakistani schools, where students chant to drown out speakers they don't like. Why add to Pakistan's problems?

    "3. Every Muslim willingly by his own intention ‘de-activating’ his/her account."

    Would you have Pakistanis give up their computers and return to scrolls of parchment instead?

    I feel that what you want, what you feel is your right, is to be a Muslim without challenging your concept of what that is. Yet the contradictions within such an attitude make that impossible, for either nobody can say anything to anybody else, or all must accept one as a leader. Violence is the eventual result.

    The West's approach is better. Just accept blasphemy, as long as it isn't in the form of compulsion. Then if unjust it can be ignored and it is robbed of much of its power.

    1. Personally, I would do none of the three -the alternatives were only suggested for those who feel OBLIGED to do something.

      Yes, ideally, your way is better. But practically, it’s perhaps too much to expect of the Islamic State of Pakistan to digest the idea of ignoring blasphemy even though no one was forcing us to take part in it.

  20. Great article! Thanks for sharing some sanity!

    The best response would have been to do nothing! All the free publicity that Pakistan's ban has garnered has made a small obscure set of people headline news globally.

    Even with all this attention there are only 80000 members out of 400 million who have joined the group. We, a nation of 170 million are now effectively hostage to the actions of those who would spread hate and ignorance.

    Its as if one book in a library was blasphemous and then the whole library was shut down. And now everyone wants to lynch the librarian.

    At the end of all this, how is Facebook, the members of the group affected? Are the people who posted that page going to change their opinion about Islam after seeing this reaction? No? Will the manner in which the state is blocking access to information in over 300 webistes going to make us better muslims? No!

    I agree: Get over it! If only everyone displayed so much passion, outrage and emotion when they have to follow the law, pay their taxes, reduce poverty…we wouldnt be in this situation and all that ails our country today!

    I'll end by:

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh): "The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr." "The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge." "Thinking deep for one hour is better than 70 years of mechanical worship." "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave."

    …………………………………….

  21. This is such a shameless post that it cannot be described in words

    did anyone imagine that a time will come when Muslims(?) will fall to such low levels that they will have to find arguments that how talking bad of holocaust should be a crime as its 'mocks' Jews whereas depicting Prophet SAW in cartoons to (God Forbid) make fun of Him (SAW) is not mocking of Muslims. If it isn't Muslims than who are they targeting? Before putting forward your hollow arguments did you think for a moment that Islam is from Prophet SAW and any attack on Prophet SAW is attack on 1bn Muslims of the world, your very conveniently ignored this and came-up with justification that since denying holocaust is offending to Jews so it should be outlawed

    MS Fatima, why don't you just out-rightly say that your masters, the zionists, are the chosen ones so of-course denying holocaust should be a crime

    and since, we the Muslims, are Children of a Lesser God so definitely our feelings, our emotions don't matter and we don't even have the right to complain

    and MS Fatima, even in west vast majority of people think that mocking holocaust should not be a crime but you being a house negro love your master more than he loves himself and to prove your loyalty you have to come-up with such humiliating arguments

    1. It can be pondered that should whole facebook should be blocked or should the blockage be limited to offending parts(although I prefer the former)

      However, saying that it is OK to clamp down only on holocaust mocking while people should be set free to Mock Prophet SAW is utter nonsense, saying so only show that you are a mental slave of zionosts

    2. I have already clarified about my 'PERSONAL' stance on Facebook's double standards and holocaust. Please go through the comments already acknowledged before you start questioning MY faith and MY religion. [You can scroll up and pay heed to comments numbered 9, 10.1, 18.1]. Just because you have misinterpreted the ideas presented, does not make me a Zionist.

      Your comment itself is a living proof of how people use sensationalism combined with personal attacks and name-calling as a means to silence other people's opinions which may differ from their own.

      And lastly, we must agree to disagree, because I fail to see eye to eye with someone who thinks 'criticizing' the holocaust should not be a crime.

  22. Fatima,

    A ban is not be the most appropriate reaction, but WHY shouldn't there be a reaction on the national level? Blasphemy, and that too when spread to this level cannot and should not be ignored.

    If anything, I think our government should have lodged a formal complain with the American Government.

    I think we are in this state today, cause all the moderate people simply choose to ignore all the wrongs being done to the muslims.

    If the silent majority was reacting (sensibly) at all, the reactions of the extremists would not be seen as the reaction of the whole Muslim Ummah. But instead, we just care about sending out the 'moderate' image, and remain silent in a bid to show how cool we are. No wonder the extremists are being taken as the spokesperson of Islam.

  23. what kind of muslim are you huh? how can you be against this ban!! we can not be muslisms unless we love Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) more than ourselves. If you love someone more than yourself, how can you think its wrong to ban facebook. I donot live in Pakistan. I have access to everything and I was one of those facebook people who can not go a day without facebook. After this cartoon incident, I willfully deactivated my facebook account. This is the least I can do!

    1. haha… i think you should also return to your cave. that way you'll never have to talk to anyone who has a viewpoint that is in opposition to your version of islam. it'll make life so much easier.

  24. Go to this site. Look at the pictures. These images of the Prophet are drawn by Muslim throughout the ages when images of him were not considered blasphemy. The reality is that Muslims are looking for an excuse these days. Things are in a horrible condition for many Pakistanis-lack of electricity, heat, water, education, healthcare-and instead of calling their leaders to task and trying to understand their predicament, the first thing they do is start attacking anyone who they can. Shutting down facebook is easy. Resolving your own history, being honest about what Islam really preaches is much harder. Holding leaders accountable requires real sacrifice.
    I'm so disappointed with the so-called Muslims of pakistan. Your history goes straight back to the prophet's time to today. All the stuff that happen in the middle is just a blur. If you don't talk/read about it, you'll never learn from it.

    1. You are just pissed you don't get to use facebook anymore. These are not just pictures but cartoons ridiculing our Prophet (PBUH). You may be ok with it but i guarantee you that the majority of Pakistani's are not. Some 2 million out of a population of 180 million have an account on facebook. Even if we assume that all facebook users oppose the ban the remaining majority would still support banning any website or forum that was blasphemous of our Prophet.

      If you are really that liberal like you are trying to act than i am sure you will be on the side of the majority – isn't that democracy that the west cannot stop preaching us? Rule of the majority?

  25. THE HOLY QURAN

    33:56 (Y. Ali) Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

    'A PERSONALITY' which ALLAH, His angels and Muslims around the world salute as they have been commanded to ……..no amount of caricatures and dishonorable words of the kafirun can diminish his importance…..frankly speaking THEY r doing what they r best at …i.e KUFR….and Allah is more then enough to deal with them but such statements like the following u made, a fellow muslim made…..enrages me more than the cartoons :

    "It cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality."

    JUST ONE PERSONALITY !!!!???? MS FATIMA AJMAL?????!!!!

    8:29 (Y. Ali)" Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure…."

    PAKISTAN JUST GAVE 'THEM' A MSG BY THE BAN WHICH ITS TRUE THAT THEY MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT GET….FOR AS U SAID:

    "Why do you expect them to get ….. they make fun of their own prophet i.e. Jesus -who by the way, is God for them? "

    CARE OR NOT CARE….

    "Oh and by the way, they still don’t care:"

    BUT WE DO :)

    AND WE STAND FIRM AGAINST THE UNBELIEVERS!!

  26. "If you're offended by the Prophet cartoon thing,

    here's an easy solution ,

    Just change your religion or become atheist .

    You'll be just fine."

    1. And if someone says anything about your mother or father you should change them too – no problem at all

  27. Thank you for your wise words. The price we pay for freedom is the occasional blasphemous or hateful words. We are under no obligation to respect or even listen. Just walk away. I may not like what you say but I will defend your right to say it.

  28. I honestly have to say how disgusting it is that people challenge a woman's faith with her opinion.You have no right to question her faith. I might disagree with Fatima at certain points, but i am NOT ALLAH to judge her. Before you start preaching Islam, maybe you should go LEARN about Islam yourselves. Fatima is against the depictions of the Prophet, my goodness,how many times does she have to say it. BTW, she doesn't owe an explanation to each an everyone of you, she clarified herself once, don't you people know how to read? Deactivate your FB if you don't like it.Some people use it to voice their opinions. REMEMBER THE PROPHETS LAST SERMON…and remember to have PATIENCE. You're going to meet ppl with different opinions all your life and personal attacks are plain dumb and against the teachings of the Prophet.

  29. @Famita

    “It[holocaust] cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality.”

    so you clarified your personal stance ? Read again what you have written !!!

    For you our Holy Prophet SAW is just one personality (note the small P which you used)

    You have tried to exalt the status of jews in front of Holy Prophet SAW, for you the Jew race is more important(and more worthy of respect?) as compared to our Holy Prophet SAW

    I am amazed that how the owner allowed such filth to be posted on a Pakistani blog ?

    and again, attack on Prophet SAW is not attack on one Personality, it is attack on our religion and worst form of racism as it is targeting a ethnic group based on religion

  30. Your point No. 2 is incorrect. In many of these western countries that want to portray themselves as champions of free speech, it is a jailable offence to deny that the holocaust ever took place – not make fun of it which might hurt the feelings of jews but just deny that it happened & you go to jail. Why doesn't the same argument that you cannot control what people think apply there? Why does their 'freedom of speech' rhetoric go hiking up their as… when it comes to this & only when it is bashing muslims does it come out.

    Agreed that many of us react in the most absurd & stupid manner which we shouldn't and grow up.

    But having said that, freedom of speech has its limits – everywhere in the world – dictated by society & by the governments. There are no countries in the world where anything goes. There will always be some form of censorship.

    For example, you cannot stop people from making porn movies but you can definitely stop channels from airing it. If say some XYZ channel decides tomorrow to air porn movies in Pakistan would you be supporting them in the name of freedom of speech?

    Similarly we cannot stop people from making fun of our Prophet (PBUH). But we can certainly control the forums available to them.

    And the as…. that started it all is actually not partying but has apologized for what she started.

  31. Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust (taken from greek word exactly meaning as whole burnt) include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents.(Wikipedia )

    its period was from 1933 to 1945 and all was done by anti jews forces.

    11 millions people died under this label of Holocaust.

    After this period the jews settled in all modern areas of world and proved their credibility and skills.They got excelled in all industrial and economical fields of new worlds.Now they are controlling super powers and its political leaders.All major industries in US and UK are directly or indirectly under control of Jews.

    These days same kind of mohrakhat muslman is going on but compare the difference.

    Muslims are being killed by muslim and christian army.

    Muslim leadership is fully cooperating with powers in such kind of genocide.

    Prophets are respectable in all states and religions and only mischievous characters who get privilege of freedom of speech as facility in broadminded environment cross limits of decency.It is just misusing of liberty which liberal states allow to their residents but such moves produce negative effects in narrow minded and corrupt cultures.

    So decent protest is our right and if anybody from ourside would try to cross the limit of decency and go for violent moves, then responsibility should be put on literate and religious characters of Muslims communities.

    Instigating the illiterate emotional class is not the only solution of showing our love to Prophet but serious consideration for rehabilitation should be set for restructuring our damaged status in non muslim areas.

    1. Nabeel – Did you realize that PTA just went over and beyond the court order of Facebook to block 1000 more website which literally had nothing, or if they had were deeply submereged in some unknown URL – to block it – the problem is you give some authority to one person he misuese it – our people cannot be given unconditional right –

      Facebook banning in my opinion is not the solition u just removed 2 million people who were defending the prohpet – you let the entire platform open to poeple who will make fun, while we sit outside twirling our fingers and cannot even hurt a fly – in a tight game of cricket – would you stay and fight or just walk off because you cant solve it – my position remains – ban that particular URL and let the other parts open so we can take these idiots on we were already doing so here b countering the cartoons to promte a page which honors our prophet [pbuh] treating violenc with a message of peace and harmony – showing them we are above them – but covertly working to counter them word for word

  32. Freedom of speech is an authority giving to citizens by their governments so that they use their skills without feeling any restrain in their natural expressing and convincing powers.

    This power can all time challenged in their courts and if you move to labour and less edcuated communities even in muslim circles they are all time suing their companies and bosses for getting compensation if they are able to proved that their self respect is hurt in working environment.

    So in such matters it is sentiments of Muslims that are taking exaggerating turns other wise we are far behind in standard of mannerism and courtesy found in western cultures.

  33. Asslam o alykum

    am user of facebook since 2006, and most of time i spent on facebook,but sumtimes yo have to compromize ur rights coz of big cause,like Mohammad (S.a.w)said, "no one can be true muslim till he/she loves Me more than all humans,her/his mother .. or all of his/her love ones(meanings)"

    coz sum one pointed if porn sketches happens to fatima mothers,what will she does?,she replied "I wonder how many Pakistanis apply the same rule of ‘if it were your mother’ when watching porn. Like always, don’t we just love resorting to personal/emotional blackmail. I will choose to ignore your question which is obviously meant to hurt me and elicit a highly heated reaction out of me"

    but for being a muslim Mohammad (S.A.W) more than her mother,my mother,so what i do? what a muslim shud do?

    if sumone(facebook) persistin that they can't do,they just can't do? what i do? what could i do?

    simply usin facebook but don't go to that page/link wheres my mother's porn sketches?

    or stop using face book? and my brothers and sisters keep on usin face book?or to tell them that shes their mother too( sharm karo??)but if most of us brother and sister are agreed to ban Facebook at home??one of us aint agreed, shud keep on? if its keep on?? what will be rights rest of us?,i can't understand what u ppl takin on? what u ppl arguein on?

    it is very simple . don make it difficult bros n sis,

    was Facebook user , but it doesnt mean if my matters dont settle with Facebook and hopeless,

    plz plz plz Allah k wastey Ego ka masla mat banao pleassee

    Allah Karim Hey

    Allah se daro( don't argue, when u got it true in ur hearts)Like Allah said "(meanin) yeh Ap (S.A.W) ko aise pehchante hain jese apne bacho kopehchante hain, laikin iman nahi laingey( because of their ego)

    Allah karim hey

    Allah ap sub ka hami o nasir ho

    Farrukh Malik

    [email protected]

  34. @Teeth: If there was a referendum on this issue in Pakistan, please tell honestly don't you think the majority of people would support banning facebook not just for a few days but indefinitely?

    Isn't that what democracy is? The rule of the majority? So if the majority wants facebook to be banned would you support its ban?

    Of course you can always counter by saying how do i know if the majority want it banned or not. I don't. But i can safely assume if i am honest with myself what the vote of the majority would be.

    1. AL – my issue here is – is banning the way to run and hide from the issue – we as Muslims and Pakistanis were the most active against this group forcing us to ban the site has ineffect forced us to vacate the terrirotry- we have left the entire FB open to miscreants to tarnish the image of our prophet [pbuh] – and only to sit idly letting them have a free reign. My argument hence has been limit the ban – let your people put a unified attack in defense of our prophet – the plan was to put quotes and hadiths on the site showing the better and brighter side of our prophet – you would accidentally see the eveil but gaze it out of your mind for the sake of spreading the word – alternatively there was a Facebook Group page to Honour the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and also the Fan Page which I FULLY supported, rather then spreading that cartoon hatred page I promoted a better response –

      we needed to challenge them, we failed, 10 days letter we have made a mountain of a mole hill and everyone will still have the last laugh – its not the facebook you are battling you are battling a thought – its on facebook today was on danish newspapers then – violence will only make it worse and we end up killing our own people and they dont care shit – join hands and rally hard

    2. I get the point. But i think there is one issue here – we needed to send out a message as a nation & that needed a coordinated effort which would be impossible if left to individuals to defend. Maybe the court went about it the wrong way – this should have been a symbolic ban for a few days & the court should have said so – and it should have directed the government to raise an issue at the international level.

      We shouldn't just brush it aside as if it was a minor issue because muslims are really sentimental about this thing & this thing keeps on happening. But our response needs to be educated. I was following the debates at that page & sorry to say Pakistani's were making a fool out of themselves using abusive language & making pointless arguments.

      Anyways, the said page has been taken down not by FB but whoever created it.

    3. true! majority will support the ban except few burger kids who have been moaning on twitter and other social sites for last few days.

    4. Al says: – May 22, 2010 at 8:05 am I was following the debates at that page & sorry to say Pakistani’s were making a fool out of themselves using abusive language & making pointless arguments.

      ===========================

      Agreed and these kind of Pakistanis think that by using abusing language they are defending Islam which they aren't rather they are harming Islam.

  35. News flash! I can’t access this site, twitter and pkpolitics. I used proxy to access the above mentioned urls.

  36. I pity the poor writer, who thinks the sentiments of the Jews for Holocause are more important than the love of Muslims for Muhammad (S.A.W.W).

    Sorry, I don't agree with you.

    The ban is more symbolic than any thing else. Yes this ban may not stop idiots from stirring up hate, but it did bring together all of Pakistan.

    Shias, Sunnis, Barwelviz, Deobandi, Salafi every one is united and fully support the decision of the High Court.

    1. Blasphemy is a BIG deal:

    Yes, Blasphemy is a big deal and love of Muhammad S.A.W.W is more important than facebook, Youtube and other websites

    2. Facebook is a two-faced Jew! :

    No, dennying holocause does not mean that the denier is proposing to prosecute jews. Assumption is the mother of all f@kps.

    3. Cause and Effect:

    Uselss Rhetoric.

    4. Good Decision, LHC :

    Ok, so if people have been watching porn, then they should join the goup and draw caricatures of prophets?

    5. We win, Facebook is banned:

    So you think facebook got publicity? where do you liv? checha watnee??

    Now we can’t even go and make our presence felt on Facebook that we detest these caricatures.

    Presense felt for what? If you don't think that Blasphemy is big deal then why do you care for presense?

    Like every time in history, we have chosen to mute ourselves when it was time to make our voices heard.

    NO, IT WAS THE LOUDEST VOICE OF PROTEST. They are all frenzied by the anger people of Pakistan have shown for the love of prophet Muhammad.

    NEXT TIME, when they try to formulate their FP they would make sure that they keep the b!tches quiet.

    DO YOU THINK THEY CARE ABOUT THE PEEERS AND MAZARS? Have you not seen them putting chaddars on those mazaars? Why do they do that?

    I think the decision by High Court was very well done. Next time the PR Factories would definitely take this into their consideration

    and you have yourself admitted that debates on the internet are useless so why waste time?

    Every time some one would draw a cartoon depciting Muhammad S.A.W.W, they should know that they would be angering the whole nation and who knows this might even wake-up the sleeping nation

    1. QaimKhani says: – May 22, 2010 at 10:40 am Shias, Sunnis, Barwelviz, Deobandi, Salafi every one is united and fully support the decision of the High Court.

      =====================================

      Wrong. Define the Hazara [Shias] Killings in Baluchistan, Shia Killings in Kurram Agency [it is called Massacre], Nishter Park Blast [whole Barelvi Top Leadership was wiped out] and above all Why all sunnis oppose Muharram's Processions and Matam [read Sunni books]. United on what????

    2. whole nation

      =====================

      Since when Muslims became "Whole Nation"? Why do you need Passport and Visa for Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE and Bahrain? OK Lets just leave Passport, please explain as to why Pakistani Muslim or any other Non-Arab Muslim cannot marry a local and why the Non Arab Muslims are not given Saudi or UAE or Qatari or even worse Kuwaiti Nationality [since as per you Muslims are one Nation]. Whereas Kaafir Countries withing Five years or more give you every kind of right. Non Arab Muslims are second class citizen in any Arab Country particularly in any Oil Rich Arab Country. Here goes your one Nation Theory. Before partition Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani [Head of Deoband] had declared that Hindu and Muslim are one Nation. So which Nation are you talking about.

    3. Amir Mughal,

      Yes, Muslims are one nations you agree or not.

      Its a$$-holes like you, who suuck up to the masters, who are ruling 100% of muslim countries. In other words they are all ruled by Lucee(z) of their country.

      So, Muslims uniting is like kicking you in your pants. Thanks for exposing yourself.

      The scenario you presented about the arabs is not valid 100%. There are ignornat Amir Mughals in every Muslim country as there are in Pakistan.

  37. People should stop taking my words out of context and twisting them to make it appear as if I'm a great protector of the Jewish holocaust and not even a little bit concerned about the Prophet(PBUH)'s blasphemy. I have [repeatedly] said that I DON'T AGREE WITH THEIR DOUBLE STANDARDS. I DON'T CONDONE THE BLASPHEMY. I STRONGLY OPPOSE IT. I was merely pointing out that how unreasonable we must sound to the common non-Muslim out there when we joke about the genocide of Jews and expect them to respect someone they don't believe in. THEY -NOT ME. In order to successfully negotiate, we have to understand their perspective and stop dragging the holocaust into everything because that would lead us nowhere.

    I am a Muslim and I don't need to prove my loyalties to anyone who doesn't have the patience to calmly read through and understand the ideas presented before jumping to conclusions and making accusations. You all need protection from your own misinterpretations.

    Ulema, the world over, agree with the ideas I have presented that we need 'peaceful dialogue' at a high level to diffuse the row, rather than blanket bans or violent reactions. They have "called on Muslims to remain calm and not be provoked by what appears to be the biggest online movement to anger Muslims, even moderate ones. This is a deliberate provocation. Muslims should control themselves. We should not be emotional and angry as this provocation will go on incessantly". [Quoted from: Muhammadiyah chairman Din Syamsuddin]

    Can any of you claim to be bigger Muslims than these scholars and Ulema that I am referring to? No, but still you feel like you have the authority to accuse me of being a Zionist and Jew, only because I refuse to make fun of the holocaust in return of the blasphemy perpetrated by them. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    1. I think you have moved from your original position.

      In your post you were arguing that there were no double standards as there was no comparison of making fun of the holocaust with making fun of our Prophet (PBUH).

      In your words //"cartoon of the holocaust mocks ‘a people’ -specifically Jews." AND "It cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality."//

      And your conclusion was //"I do get how Facebook won’t delete the said pages"//.

      So you clearly seemed to understand as per your post facebook's policy & how it was not a double standard.

      And your advice to muslims was //"Get over it"//

      You now say that //"I DON’T AGREE WITH THEIR DOUBLE STANDARDS"//.

      I know you also wrote that you detest the cartoons & i would like to say that no one has any authority & any right to judge anyone's faith & i seriously disagree with people who label anyone who oppose their point of view as jewish agents.

      But i don't blame the readers for drawing the conclusion that they draw about your opinion on the entire matter.

    2. what Ulmea agree with you

      Try telling this to any Alim, Scholaar or local Imam

      “It[holocaust] cannot be equated with caricatures which target just one personality.”

      I am sure he will give you a piece of his mind that how dare you tried to downplay the importance of Our Holy Prophet SAW

      don't try to eat your own words and don't try to be a spokesperson of zionoits

      don't try to drag Ulemas along with you, no scholar has said that

      1) Blasphemy isn't a big deal

      2) holacaust is more important that Holy Prophet SAW

      and Pakistanis have not got provoked, they are not burning anything they are not killing anyone, however the Govt of Pakistan has taken the step where it will hurt them the most i.e. banning the facebook services and causing them financial

      @QaimKhani

      Thanks, I agree with you

  38. I have few questions to all of you Muslims:

    What is face book? Is it necessary for our life? Can’t we breathe without it? Can’t we live without it? Can’t we live happy without it? Is it our duty to be a member in fact active member of FB? Can’t we use any other social network if it is really important for us to be a part of a social network on internet? Are we serving our country, religion, humanity or even a single person by using FB? Is it freedom of speech to draw pornographic images of someone’s father or beloved one? Can’t we use some other Islamic resources or forums to share Qurani verses, Hadis, Videos of Islamic Scholars?

    And is it more important to be Muhammad (S.A.W.W) Lover or FB Lover? Could we ask for intercession on the Day of Judgment by our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.W)?

    If we didn’t block FB, then what was the other ways to protest which effect (banning of 0.5% users of FB even didn’t affect total users of 400 million, but this could be much more if the whole Islamic world banned FB).

    And I have just one answer to all these question Yes I can live without FB and I have deactivated my FB account forever. And I am also trying to follow my religion Islam more strictly.

    May Allah Bless Us With The Strength of Faith. Aameen.

    And also we need to get independent from these Non Muslims countries in technology, finance, business, AIDs, politics, decision making, education system, social life, media, and in every field of life. We need to be true Muslim and a devoted Pakistani. Aameen.

  39. Fatima Ajmal.

    Tell me one thing.

    - PPl like Civil Society of Pakistan and Lawyers are allowed to make others life hell by protesting in favor of Iftikhar Chudhary.

    -Ppl chant about restoration of Judiciary and trust in CJ Iftikhar and His decision.

    - One like it or not but LHC gave the verdict on the basis of Constitution of Pakistan

    Please tell me what is irking you most. Be straight and share your stance. None of the thing done by Pakistanis or LHC is inappropriate and out of law. Protest is a civilized way to register the concern. I don't understand what kind of logic are you putting here and ignore such logics when protests made by Awab and Co in favor or against of "God Damned anything"?

    I smell hypocrisy here.

  40. And it's a lame argument that we "publicized" the page. I was part of that blasphemous page and beside cartoon submission people were even trying to let many nonMuslims know that this is wrong.

    What you suggest is to sit silent. OK fine , what if they do again? There must be a limit,No? We did not invade US or Sweden like America just for sake of it. People just registered their protest. They have right to boycott facebook. You can't dictate them what to do and what not. As someone said, all your logic will blow away if someone publishes your "photoshoped" nasty pic or any objectionable matter. At that time you will even think of comit suicide and would like to burn entire Internet. Read the following sad news how a girl comitted suicide after sexting.

    news.ninemsn.com.au/world/979252/girl-13-kills-herself-after-sexting-bullying

    Jab Apna pa ati hay to sara falsafa naak k zariya bah jata hay.

  41. (as reported by Bukhari and Muslim)

    [b]"None of you becomes a believer until I am dearer to him than his children, his parents and all mankind." Some versions add: "his life, his wealth and his family".[/b]

    however, the author here seems to hold the holocaust and her love of jews above everything

    I never knew that people will bend so low before zioonist that they will have to start defending holocaust over Holy Prophet SAW

  42. Fatima

    actually the problem is in your heading in which three words have no correlation with each other.

    Holocaust has no link with prophecy and Prophets and it is act of strong and powerful humans toward a community.

    There is no objection on any Prophet in any civilized society and we should only keep the margin of criminal minded people in all societies.Violent reactions against ignorant are actually example that two wrongs can go for integrated severity in any society.

    Protest is right of all living beings but how it should proceed it depends on our grooming and good intentions.

    Mark Zuckerberg has background of jew but call himself as atheist created this face book during his studies in Harvard student and gained popularity of its product in all side of world irrespective of any religious boundaries.

    Now he has become youngest billionaire of world.

    Now compare him with our Dr aaefia saiddique and her family , all enjoyed US scholarship in top amercain universities but they got nothing like that as Mark did.Same with Faisal shaezad who picked US as his second country and has strong background in Pakistan but both characters have got popualrity for particapating in terrorism activities.

    So do you have any clue that why highly qualified and privileged kids of islamic society ,followers of prophets couldnt excel like Mark Zuckerberg in US culture as all characters got same kind of responses from US GOVT and its universities.

  43. Ali

    at this moment even you cant access to safehazard.com so you can judge the anian janian of PTA.They have got full time adventure of misusing their authority and teasing the people who are professionally engaged with such websites and businesses.

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