With all the wheeling and dealing by our country’s leaders compromising on all national issue only to ensure that their own stay in power is secured it does seem that our very own leaders elected / burecratic and military have unleashed yet another wrath unto the people of Pakistan by allowing the menacing extra-military force called Blackwater to establish a strong foothold in Pakistan.
Blackwater or recently known as Xe is a rogue military force comprised of ex-military personnel that has had a very bad reputation of being instrumental in a number of assassinations and armed bullying in Iraq and Afghanistan and it appears that they are now being welcomed into Pakistan.
This is OUR country, and there is no justification to import a team of non-Pakistani militia to come into Pakistan and establish themselves for any reason what so ever. The excuse that is being thrown around is that they are entrusted with the elite task of protecting the interests of the American Embassy in Islamabad, which I believe is hogwash.
As responsible and patriotic citizens of Pakistan I believe we as a team can out-fox our corrupt leaders in exposing this menace, this same organization played havoc with the lives of Iraqi nationals, let them not trample over us. We can wield power in numbers, literally found at every corner of the street in Pakistan, we as patriotic citizens of Pakistan can be an invisible force that chooses not be be trampled by an external force trying to run our lives
What can you do?
- Help document all their locations across Pakistan on a Map hence making it public knowledge, at Map.Pakvoices.net, this I believe is a noble thing to do since they’re definitely a security risk for us Pakistanis and the least patriotic thing that we can do is point out these rogue militia [NOTE: All submissions will need to be verified before going live]
- Help take pictures / videos of any encounters you may have with this militia, spot them on the street, snap a picture and post them on either on Youtube / flickr [without unnecessarily exposing yourself] you can also submit them as an incident at Pakvoices or email to iReport@Pakvoices.net
- You can also symbolically join the Facebook group EXPEL Blackwaters & US marines from Pakistan
- More importantly do join the effort to spread the word making more and more Pakistanis become aware of this increasing menace in Pakistan, a few good suggestions have been suggested by Talkhaaba
Please NOTE: All submissions made to the PakVoices.net website will go through some degree of verficiation to ensure correctness before going public
Comments
118 responses to “Blackwater Watch by Citizens of Pakistan”
Dear Dr Awab Sahab,
An important breakthrough!
Retired captain held for ‘links’ with anti-state network
By Munawer Azeem Thursday, 17 Sep, 2009 | 06:09 AM PST
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-…
BACKGROUND:
CIA, Blackwater, Pakistan, & Blackwater as per Jeremy Scahill
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/08/cia-blac…
Private Contractors, Aal-e-Saud and Wahabis
Previously I thought it is USA .but it is more of Saudi Arabia using USA. Have Saudis got any think tanks or do they work on personal instincts of the Prince and Kings.[Farrah Shah]
=======================
really ??? like whome??? wahabi is the term used by westerners for any mulim group who believe in jihad.[dr jawwad khan]
==========================
Dear Ms Farrah Shah,
In continuation from another thread. US Saudi Axis of Evil.
The Pentagon has awarded a 48-million-dollar contract to train the nucleus of a new Iraqi army to Vinnell Corporation, a US firm which also trains the Saudi National Guard. The Fairfax, VA-based company, a subsidiary of the US aerospace firm Northrup Grumman, said on its website it was hiring former US army and marine officers to train infantry battalions and combat support units for the new Iraqi army. The Vinnell Corp. of Alexandria, Va., owned by politically connected Northrop-Grumman. Founded in the early 1930s, Vinnell worked on the Los Angeles highway system before it started to expand into military construction during World War II. During the Vietnam War, the company built bases in South Vietnam that it later had to blow up after the United States withdrew from the country. According to The Boston Herald, a Pentagon official called Vinnell "our own little mercenary army" in a 1975 interview with The Village Voice. Vietnam almost led Vinnell to bankruptcy, but a 1975 contract worth $77 million to train the Saudi Arabian National Guard started a long and lucrative history of involvement in the Middle East. Twenty-eight years later, Vinnell's Saudi operations employ more than 1,300 workers, including almost 300 U.S. government personnel, under an $800 million five-year contract to train land forces, the air force and other elements of the Saudi Arabian military. The contract, which is run by the U.S. Army Materiel Command, is financed by the Saudis. Vinnell is responsible for training the New Iraqi Army (NIA). Work on the $48 million one-year contract began July 1, 2003, and is expected to be completed by June 30, 2004. The contract includes a feature called "Not-To-Exceed Cost Ceiling," meaning that Vinnell's total contract invoices for the first six months cannot exceed 50 percent of the contract estimate, or $24,037,221.
Thomas Fintel, Vinnell's president and CEO, served 27 years in the U.S. Army. He attained the rank of colonel, and in addition to being a brigade commander, he also worked in the U.S. Army Force Modernization Coordination Office. Donald C. Winter, corporate vice president of Vinnell's parent company Northrop Grumman and president of Northrop Grumman Mission Systems, was program manager for space acquisition, tracking, and pointing programs with the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) from 1980 to 1982. William O. Studeman, vice president and deputy general manager for intelligence and information superiority in Northrup Grumman Mission Systems, served as deputy director of Central Intelligence from 1992 to 1995. He served in the U.S. Navy and retired as an admiral in 1995.
Kent Kresa, who stepped down as Northrop Grumman's board chair in October 2003, worked with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) before joining Northrop Grumman in 1975. Retired Gen. John T. Chain, a member of Northrop Grumman's board, also serves as a director of R.J Reynolds Inc., ConAgra Foods Inc., and Kemper Insurance Company. He is also the chairman of the Thomas Group Inc., and previously he worked for Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation. He served as commander in chief of the Strategic Air Command before he retired from the U.S. Air Force in 1991. Former Democratic congressman Vic Fazio is a senior partner in Clark & Weinstock, a consulting firm. During his time on Capitol Hill, he was a member of the Appropriations Committee, Budget and Ethics Committee and the Armed Services Committee. Fazio was part of the Democratic leadership from 1991 to 1998, rising to the party's third-ranking position as chair of the Democratic Caucus. Fazio has contributed more than $110,000 to mostly Democratic candidates since 1980. Retired Adm. Charles R. Larson served as commander in the Pacific from 1991 to 1994. He also consults government and industry on defense and foreign policy issues. Larson was also superintendent of the U.S. Naval Academy, first from 1983 to 1986, and again from 1994 to 1998. He is vice chairman of the board of regents of the University System of Maryland and is on the board of directors of Edge Technologies Inc., the U.S. Naval Academy Foundation and the Atlantic Council. Philip A. Odeen was chairman of TRW Inc. from February 2002 until December 2002. Odeen served as president, chief executive officer and director at BDM International Inc. from 1992 to 1997. BDM was acquired by TRW in 1997. He has held senior positions with the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Council staff. Odeen is a member and former vice chairman of the Defense Science Board.
US Private Contractors/Saudi Arabia
Previously I thought it is USA .but it is more of Saudi Arabia using USA. Have Saudis got any think tanks or do they work on personal instincts of the Prince and Kings.[Farrah Shah]
=======================
really ??? like whome??? wahabi is the term used by westerners for any mulim group who believe in jihad.[dr jawwad khan]
==========================
"QUOTE"
Saudi Arabia: Vinnell Adds Saudis To Its Trainee Roster
Business Week February 24th, 1975
Confirming reports this week that a little-known Alhmabra (Calif.) heavy construction company, Vinnell Corp., has a $77-million contract to train Saudi Arabian forces to defend Saudi oil fields, the Defense Dept. managed to shed little light on the deal. The Pentagon sidesteppped any probing questions about the contract, shunting them to the State Dept., which had approved it.
Officials at State, clearly hoping to allay fears of U.S. military involvement or CIA-type intrigue in the touchy Middle East, treated it as part of routine policy to assist friendly governments with internal security. State confirmed, for instance, that Bell International is training an Iranian "sky cavalry" brigade using Bell equipment. Vinnell itself was maintaining the lowest possible profile. Neither President John F. Hammill nor Bob Montgomery, the company's general manager for special projects, was available for comment. Experienced
Industry sources familiar with Vinnell, however, are not surprised at the reticence. They know Vinnell as a publicity-shy contractor that has had many government jobs. It has not only had similar training assignments in the past, they say, but has been active in Saudi Arabia since 1957, when the U.S. Air Force brought it there to manage engineering at the Dhahran air base. The company has never acknowledged that it trains foreign nationals in anything other than equipment handling and maintenance. But as the chairman of one multinational company remarks, "Like many construction companies abroad, they tend to take on broad responsibilities."
The venture in Saudi Arabia — if not canceled by the Senate Armed Services Committee — appears to fit the Vinnell mold. Founded by the late A. S. Vinnell back in 1931 to pave roads in Los Angeles, the company has handled a number of large domestic government projects, but its thrust in recent decades has been overseas.Between 1946 and 1967, it completed some $350-million of contracts in Southeast Asia. It handled equipment for the Republic of China in 1946, was the major contractor in Okinawa, overhauled Air Force planes in Guam in the early 1950s, and sent men and equipment onto the battlefields of the Korean War. For years, Hammill was boss of operations in Vietnam, where Vinnell operated floating power barges, land-based power plants, and electrical distribution systems through the height of the fighting. With overseas operations now spread from Bangladesh to Mexico, Vinnell is still operating electric plants in Vietnam.
FAIR USE NOTICE. This document may contain copyrighted materialwhose use has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner.CorpWatch is making this article available in our efforts to advance the understanding of corporate accountability, human rights, labor rights, social and environmental justice issues. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.
"UNQUOTE"
US Private Contractors/Saudi Arabia
Previously I thought it is USA .but it is more of Saudi Arabia using USA. Have Saudis got any think tanks or do they work on personal instincts of the Prince and Kings.[Farrah Shah]
=======================
really ??? like whome??? wahabi is the term used by westerners for any mulim group who believe in jihad.[dr jawwad khan]
=========================
"QUOTE"
Vinnell Corporation: 'We Train People to Pull Triggers' CorpWatch March 20th, 2003
Vinnell corporation was founded by the late A. S. Vinnell in 1931 to pave roads in Los Angeles. Since then the company has handled a number of large domestic as well as government projects. The company was the major contractor for US military operations in Okinawa, overhauled Air Force planes in Guam in the early 1950s, and sent men and equipment onto the battlefields of the Korean War. Now based in Fairfax, Virginia, the company has been controlled in the past through a web of interlocking ownership by a partnership that included James A. Baker III and Frank Carlucci, former U.S. secretaries of state and defense under presidents George Bush senior and Ronald Reagan respectively. Perhaps the most important military contract Vinnell landed was in 1975 when the Pentagon helped the company win a bid to train the 75,000 strong Saudi Arabian National Guard, a military unit descended from the Bedouin warriors who helped the Saud clan impose control on the peninsula early in last century.
An article in Newsweek at the time described the company's first recruitment efforts with the aid of "a one-eyed former U.S. Army colonel named James D. Holland" in a cramped office in the Los Angeles suburb of Alhambra to put together "a ragtag army of Vietnam veterans for a paradoxical mission: to train Saudi Arabian troops to defend the very oil fields that Henry Kissinger recently warned the U.S. might one day have to invade." "We are not mercenaries because we are not pulling triggers," a former U.S. Army officer told the magazine. "We train people to pull triggers." One of his colleagues wryly pointed out: "Maybe that makes us executive mercenaries."
Since 1994 the company has been paid $800 million for training and construction alone according to a Freedom of Information Act request conducted by U.S. News and World Report. In return Vinnell has constructed, run, staffed, and written doctrine for five military academies, seven shooting ranges, and a healthcare system, as well as training and equipping four mechanized brigades and five infantry brigades. In 1997 Charles Hanley, a special correspondent for the Associated Press newswire, got a rare glimpse inside the Saudi operation where he described 300 American military veterans in the desert hills overlooking Riyadh with yellow "Vinnell Arabia" patches on their khaki-and-olive-drab uniforms training young Saudis in the operation of new General Motors light armored vehicles and other weaponry while supervising supply operations, operating a hospital and updating the Guard's data processing, among other functions.
"UNQUOTE"
Alarming developments indeed. Awab, you might want to correct the spelling of rogue – rouge is french for red.
@Imad thank you – it seems the typo was repeated a number of times in the post – corrected, thank you
I came to know first about Blackwater coming to Pakistan by this article:
http://www.vibe.pk/content/8th-Anniversary-911-We…
It is completely unacceptable for the people of Pakistan. These rulers of ours are nothing more than circus champs. The heinous crimes of blackwater now known as Xe services run shudders down my spine.
And they are coming to Pakistan. These leaders of ours should be tried in court. They accuse Musharraf of treason, it is they who are carrying our treason against the state in the truest sense of the word.
Each and every dignified Pakistani is unified on this issue Teeth. Let us tell the Government how Pakistanis honor their land.
WE the people of Pakistan need to act and act fast … lets throw these filthy politicians out … zarkhari at top … if Sharif Ganjas want to join him they should get the same treatment
…also we have got plenty of Mir Jafars & Sadiqs in our ranks … Pervez Hoodbhai sort of intellectuals
Where is army n agencies ??? Are you with us or against us ?
Its the time for final decision…countdown has begun
I wonder if PakVoices will be able to handle the mass traffic coming in when people of Pakistan will be posting hanged blackwater personel pictures.
Its all a facade and attention grabbing attempt by those who want people to be distracted from Musharraf trial. Media is just playing along with them. What else we can except from so called anchors and analysts who are on payroll of various local and foreign agencies.
a great initiative….truely a great effort by dr awab..
my question is simply that why americans(black water) feel safe while no pakistani feel safe here.
why their(black water's) presence can not be seen by suicide bombers and pakistani taliban?
i belive we have two lines of defence against notorious black water:
1) non violant and vigilant pakistanis with general public awareness along with thorough debates and discussions of possible outcome of the presence of black water.
2) all jihadi forces capable to bring them down.
we can not expect the defence from our armed forces,its intelligence services and gig shot generals because they are getting paid very well.our only hope is people of pakistan.
Teeth, I joined facebook blackwater group and i put my 2 links there. 14th august and halluci-Nations walay…folks came around 10 so far not bad most r coming from Eric Margolis pages…still meager but reasonable in the start of my blog around 50 daily new hits not bad others still ain't gettin dis…well blackwaters are kind of mercenaries, bought by US UNato to fit for their own perverse NWO.
4 example whatever happened in churches of punjab can be seen in dis perspective…it is a try to stir up each other emotion against each others so Neo-Cons aka Neo-conservatism can carry on gratuitous war and gain profit from carnage sponsored by central-cabala aka central bankers of US/EUK.
gotcha….?
You guys are idiots and will believe anything just because somebody puts on the web. For God's sake please actually focus your attention on the real issues facing our country and not some ridiculous conspiracy theory!!
they are coming to Pakistan. These leaders of ours should be tried in court. They accuse Musharraf of treason, it is they who are carrying our treason against the state in the truest sense of the word.
Stupid may be !
but i just want to know why this lady is wearing military jacket ??
NO ONE CAN BE PATRIOTIC ON AN EMPTY STOMACH.
@Manto: you're wasting your time, man. Facts are evil in this town.
@Danial,
I hear you, feel like I'm shouting at the rain here. Don't give up hope, these guys are on the wrong side of history, in 20-30 years they'll be sure they never believed in all the nonsense they celebrate now.
@manto
@danial
i thought the denial has some psychological or environmental reasons but i was wrong defending black water means some thing black in the dish…
Allow me to say that you are paid clowns of the american circus circus in pakistan.
yes you have me figured out. I am getting money from the Americans. Anyone who disagrees with you guys has to be some sort of secret agent. Also, Danial and I are really treacherous Pakistanis who just want the Americans to take over Pakistan so that they can make us maharajas. I always wanted to rule Faisalabad, and I'm assuming Danial may want Pindi.
by the way read my posts, where do i EVER defend blackwater? please point it out to me. And if you can't find it, have the damn decency to apologize.
BTW I think you are on the payroll of the Saudis, Iranians, Ahmedis and Lucky Irani circus. Also your real name is Bilqees and you are a 15 year old school girl (I hope you understand sarcasm – I have as much proof of this being true as you have of my being someone's "paid clown")
"You guys are idiots and will believe anything just because somebody puts on the web. For God’s sake please actually focus your attention on the real issues facing our country and not some ridiculous conspiracy theory!!"
sorry folks!!! i insist on my opinion that you two are nothying more than clown in the american circus…have no idea what you are talking about…
the whole country is scarred because of the presence of notorious black water you two are indulged in a typical monkey business with the wisdom of a common man..
black water has started offering money to the people for their services and no wonder you may be working for black water.
dr jawwad khan, I am still waiting for you to point out where I defended blackwater as you claimed I did. Please show me where I did that.
"I am still waiting for you to point out where I defended blackwater as you claimed I did. Please show me where I did that"
its not the direct defence.
how can any one defend the black water openly? but what you are trying to do is simply ridculing the general public scare over the presence of black water. it means you are trying to reduce the level of threshold of rightful public scare over clear and present danger…i think you are offering great services for your american masters.
http://kashifiat.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/blackwa…
I see, first you said I defended them and no you say I didn't!! You are not worth the time but I am sick to day and in bed, and have nothing better to do…so here is another stab at getting my point across to you…
I am ridiculing the "scare" b/c it apparently is based on this woman – who claims to be a "defence analyst", she works for something called ILIM tv, which is only on the web – has no corporate details on its website (though it does have a disclaimer that says it cannot vouch for accuracy!!).
So is this woman even qualified to make a report, is anyone checking her sources to make sure she is accurately telling the truth? (have you noticed how many times she say "itillaat key mutabiq" ….umm konsi itillat? kis key mutabiq? is anyone checking this? I am all for breaking news but it needs to be professionally verified which this is clearly not. You can't just put assertions on youtube and play that idiotic music in the background and get people all riled up.
I am assuming you are a medical doctor? do you examine patients and do tests on them before making a diagnosis? You do understand the importance of evidence in making a diagnosis no?
btw here is the relevant portion of the disclaimer on the "ILIM TV web site"
"ILIM TV – The TV Channel for Pakistan! AND/OR ITS SUPPLIERS MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT THE SUITABILITY, RELIABILITY, AVAILABILITY, TIMELINESS, AND ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION, SOFTWARE, PRODUCTS, SERVICES AND RELATED GRAPHICS CONTAINED ON THE ILIM TV"
what a joke. why would you ever trust a a supplier of news that makes "NO REPRESENTATIONS" abouts its reliability!
@Dr Jawwad Khan: You got me, man. I'd give you a detailed answer but I'm having too much fun rolling around in this massive pile of dollars Blackwater gave me to be their secret ninja on teh internets! DAMN it feels good to be gangsta!
@Manto: Good work posting this 'disclaimer' (i.e. "we'll make shit up but you'll believe it anyway so why're you reading the fine print?! Fun fact: Did you know that fine print is a zionist tool for world domination?!"). The tragedy is that similar "standards" are used by people in the electronic media and the Urdu press as well (with a few noble exceptions). And given the heavy anti-reason tilt of this society, no one bothers to question anything.
Two Breakthroughs!!!
How an ex-Army commando became a terrorist Sunday, September 20, 2009 By Hamid Mir
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?I…
His honeymoon with the Pakistan Army generals was over after the creation of Jaish-e-Muhammad. Gen Mehmood wanted Ilyas Kashmiri to join JeM and accept Maulana Masood Azhar as his leader but the one eyed militant refused to do so. The militants of JeM once attacked the training camp of Ilyas Kashmiri in Kotli but he survived that attack. His outfit was banned by Musharraf after 9/11. He was arrested after an attack on the life of Pervez Musharraf in December 2003. He was tortured during the interrogation. It is alleged that he organised many terrorist attacks in different areas of Pakistan, including the assassination of Major General (retd) Faisal Alvi in Rawalpindi. Alvi was also from the SSG and he led the first-ever Army operation in North Waziristan in 2004.
Huge cache of arms recovered in capital Sunday, September 20, 2009 By our correspondent
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?I…
ISLAMABAD: The capital police raided the house of the owner of a private security agency that provides security to the US embassy in Islamabad and its diplomats, and seized a large cache of arms and ammunition in the wee hours of Saturday. Captain (retd) Syed Ali Jaffer Zaidi, who owns and runs the security agency in the name of Inter-Risk Security (Private) Limited, escaped and could not be caught during the raid on his F-6/1 residence.
Why Blackwater alone???
General Musharraf and His whole Martial Law Team of 12 Oct 1999 should be blamed!!!
AFTER 9/11.
In the afternoon, Mahmood was invited to CIA headquarters at Langley, Virginia, where he told George Tenet, the CIA director, that in his view Mullah Omar, the Taliban chief, was a religious man with humanitarian instincts and not a man of violence! This was a bit difficult for the CIA officials to digest and rightly so as the Taliban’s track record, especially in the realm of human rights, was no secret. General Mahmood was told politely but firmly that Mullah Omar and the Taliban would have to face US Military might if Osama Bin Laden along with other Al-Qaeda leaders were not handed over without delay. To send the message across clearly, Richard Armitage held a second meeting with Mahmood the same day, informing him that he would soon be handed specific American demands, to which Mahmood reiterated that Pakistan would cooperate. {Bush at War by Bob Woodward, published by Simon & Schuster, 2002, New York}, p 32. {Pakistan: Eye of the Storm by Owen Bennett Jones, published by New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2002}, p. 2.
General Mahmood on September 13, 2001, was handed a formal list of the US demands by Mr. Armitage and was asked to convey these to Musharraf and was also duly informed, for the sake of emphasis, that these were “not negotiable.” Colin Powell, Richard Armitage, and the assisstant secretary of state, Christina Rocca, had drafted the list in the shape of a “non-paper”. It categorically asked Pakistan:
Stop Al-Qaeda operatives coming from Afghanistan to Pakistan, intercept arms shipments through Pakistan, and end ALL logistical support for Osama Bin Laden.
Give blanket overflight and landing rights to US aircraft.
Give the US access to Pakistani Naval and Air Bases and to the border areas betweeen Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Turn over all the intelligence and immigration information.
Condemn the September 11 attacks and curb all domestic expressions of support for terrorism.
Cut off all shipments of fuel to the Talibans, and stop Pakistani volunteers from going into Afghanistan to join the Taliban. Note that, should the evidence strongly implicate Osama Bin Laden and the Al-Qaeda Network in Afghanistan, and should the Taliban continue to harbour him and his accomplices, Pakistan will break diplomatic relations with the Taliban regime, end support for the Taliban, and assist the US in the aforementioned ways to destroy Osama and his network.
Having gone through the list, Mahmood declared that he was quite clear on the subject and that “he knew how the President thought, and the President would accept these points.” {Bush at War by Bob Woodward, published by Simon & Schuster, 2002, New York}, p 58-59. Interview: Richard Armitage, “Campaign Against Terror,” PBS (Frontline), April 19, 2002}
Mahmood then faxed the document to Musharraf. While the latter was going through it and in the process of weighing the pros and cons of each demand, his aide de camp that Colin Powell was on the line. Musharraf liked and respected Powell, and the conversation was not going to be a problem. He told him that he understood and appreciated the US position, but he would respond to the US demands after having discussed these with his associates. Powell was far too polite to remind him that he in fact was the government, but did inform him that his General in Washington had already assured them that these demands would be acceptable to the government of Pakistan. {Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism : Allah, the Army, and America’s War on Terror by Hassan Abbas, published by An East Gate Book , M.E. Sharpe Armonk, New York. London, England.}.
NOTES.
Pakistan: Eye of the Storm by Owen Bennett Jones, published by New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2002.
Interview: Richard Armitage, “Campaign Against Terror,” PBS (Frontline), April 19, 2002; last accessed June 2, 2003, at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/campaign/i...
Bush at War by Bob Woodward, published by Simon & Schuster, 2002, New York.
Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism : Allah, the Army, and America’s War on Terror by Hassan Abbas, published by An East Gate Book , M.E. Sharpe Armonk, New York. London, England
"I am ridiculing the “scare” b/c it apparently is based on this woman – who claims to be a “defence analyst”
which woman??…please don't try to be a "bhola badsha".
you don't look like so bhola.
what is wrong manto. don't you have tv,internet or newspapers carrying news and articles representing public sentiments… or your "responsible self censorship" is not willing to believe any thing with out "concorete evidence".
"italat kay mutabiq????"
what the bullshit it is??? would you play with posionous cobra just because you never saw the biting snake?
"have you noticed how many times she say “itillaat key mutabiq” ….umm konsi itillat? kis key mutabiq? is anyone checking this? I am all for breaking news but it needs to be professionally verified which this is clearly not"
professionally verified???what kind of verification you need?
do you need utube links showing blackwater killing innocent unarmmed iraqi civilian? would it be enough? or you need newsresults criticising black water on killing unarmmed civilians??
i repeat that you are nothing but a clown in american circus in pakistan.
may be you are not ready but check these following links.i am sure you shall realise that your lines of defence is ridiculous. come with some thing better than questioning the credibility of a "women".(NOTE:following links contain the materials presented by the professionals)
indiscriminate firing on iraqi civilians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZX1odzHdAo&fe…
interview of an injured iraqi civilian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU-Y2RZ7_8k&fe…
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shMCrTxG9O4&fe…
(hameed gul over the killing of allama sarfraz naeemi)
http://www.ummatpublication.com/2009/06/13/story3…
http://www.pakistanintellectuals.com/index.php?op…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HUSdhLC60&fe…
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/sep2009-daily/14-09-2…
observations by hamid mir
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/sep2009-daily/07-09-2…
irfan siddiqi on black water
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/sep2009-daily/06-09-2…
orya maqbool jan on black water
http://www.ibitians.com/2009/09/19/cancer/#more-4…
ORYA MAQBOOL JAN revealing further information:
http://www.ibitians.com/2009/09/14/aag-hai-olade-…
WOMAN?? WHICH WOMAN?
i know only male pakistani hired to entertain americans.
Amir
Thank you so much for taking time out and posting such a detailed response.
I agree with you .
Dr. Jawwad Khan,
what does this have to do with Iraq? I am no fan of blackwater. And I am no fan of what is being done in Iraq. Why are you confusing the issue. I ask for proof that blackwater is in Pakistan and you point me to youtubes of blackwater killing people in iraq? How is that relevant to determining whether or not they are in Pakistan?
"what is wrong manto. don’t you have tv,internet or newspapers carrying news and articles representing public sentiments"
that's exactly the difference between you and I. For you, sentiments=facts. I don't care about what people feel, I only care about what's true. There's a difference. Just because you want something to be true does not make it so.
Yep, that sums up the sentiments vs facts issue perfectly. Though I have a feeling it still won't be enough for the pious brigade.
oh!
the typical denial…
what do you need? you are not ready to believe on consistant news reports, articles of respectable journalist not even foreign media reports…
well my dear i must say that this is not the best defence…
any way eid mubarak to all "muslims".
I've read through all the links you posted (fifteen minutes of my life I won't ever get back), and again, no proof, no corroboration, nothing that backs up these claims.
And since when are people like Hameed Gul, Hamid Mir and Orea Maqbul Jan "respectable" journalists? Orea Jan especially comes up with "marsias" that have absolutely no solid evidence to back up the "reen-reen".
What you've posted does nothing to back up your claims for any reasonable person. Sorry.
ooh oooh "Dr" Khan…are you handing out certifications for who is a "muslim"….could I get one…please?
danial @ denial ….thanks…no problem
@manto!!! why not,but tell me what kind of certificate u need.
for example certificate for 5 time prayers or juma prayers or eid prayers….did you said eid prayers?
my teachers said that few people are:
"thath kay namazi" and pray 5 times a day.
some are "aath kay namazi" pray only jumma prayers.
some are "saath kay namazi" pray only eid prayers.
and fews are "kaath kay namazi" they donot pray instead people offer funeral prayers for them.
now you can decide what kind of certificate you need.
a new day and a new story
http://search.jang.com.pk/details.asp?nid=375602
@manto
@danial
see there is consistent news report from all local big news paper. the question is why these big newspaper lie about that?
Again, "itila'aat ke mutabik". You're still not getting the point, Dr Jawwad.
why so many people lie about that…it is not the gossip about some celebrity…..we are talking about real incidences on the street of islamabad and peshawar reported by wellknown journalists of local media and foreign media.
i can't see a conspiracy theory..
Then I guess we have a completely different assessment.
As for people "lying" about it, read up on how urban legends are started. Do you really think all the stuff people in Pakistan (or in any country, for that matter) is true? It's very true that they may genuinely believe it, but that doesn't make it true.
The fact remains, there is no real proof. In today's world, things like this don't stay off the radar. All these well-known journalists and reporters haven't produced a single photo or video of such an incident. None of them have a mobile phone with a camera?
I'll add a few examples.
Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, extraordinary renditions and Blackwater atrocities in Iraq are documented with PROOF. That is why extreme condemnation of those activities is justified and action was taken against those found guilty in most cases.
But this Blackwater bogeyman in Pakistan is nothing more than yet another urban legend among the many that are keeping the careers of people like Ahmed Qureshi, Zaid Hamid and Orea Jan alive.
yes they do that …but what about the news report??
can any one believe that newspaper like jang group is risking its credibility by non sense media hype for cheap sensationalism?? i don't think so..
Dr Jawwad, no offence, but it seems you haven't been following the Urdu press as much as you should to be able to state that the Jang Group hasn't risked its credibility. The Jang Group, while definitely the largest media group in Pakistan, is notorious for letting facts follow editorial policy rather than editorials being informed by facts. This is not a problem exclusive to Jang or even the Urdu press, but they cannot be held up as the standard here.
I must add though that the group has broken some major stories, but the difference between the current Blackwater stories and the other major news items is that those had REAL SOURCES, EVIDENCE and TESTIMONIES. That is my point. So it doesn't matter if Jang prints it or the New York Times, if it isn't a good story, it isn't a good story.
p.s. I'll add to the New York Times example: they have had to retract many stories on Pakistan's nuclear programme because the reporter filed it based on speculation and rumour instead of actual sources and evidence. Doesn't matter how big a name is, a story must fulfil basic criteria of good journalism.
Doesn’t matter how big a name is, a story must fulfil basic criteria of good journalism.Danial Burki
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Example:
GEO TV & Kamran Khan vs Lies of Dr Shahid Masood.
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/09/geo-tv-k…
Doesn’t matter how big a name is, a story must fulfil basic criteria of good journalism.[Danial Burki]
====================
Dear Sir,
Another Example:
پاکستان کا ہر فن مولا میڈیا
علی سلمان
بی بی سی اردو ڈاٹ کام ، لاہو
کہتےہیں کہ جنگ میں سب سے پہلا خون سچ کا ہوتا ہے لیکن پاکستان میں ٹی وی چینلوں کی مسابقت کی جنگ میں شاید سچ کے ساتھ ساتھ اخلاقیات اور صحافت کو بھی قتل کیا جارہا ہے۔
انہوں نے کہا ' لگتا ہے کہ ٹی وی چینلز میں ایڈیٹر(پروڈیوسر) نام کی کوئی چیز باقی نہیں رہی ہے۔اینکر پرسن اور رپورٹر جو چاہتا ہے وہ لائیوکوریج کے نام پر براہ راست عوام تک پہنچ رہا ہے۔'
عارف نظامی کہتے ہیں 'جب سڑک پر چلتے لوگوں کو اینکر پرسن بنا دیا جائے اور ان کی مناسب تربیت کا بندوبست بھی نہ کیا جائےتو یقینامعیار نیچے آئے گا۔'
بہرحال ایسا بھی نہیں کہ تمام اینکر پرسن اور رپورٹر صحافت سے نابلد ہیں کچھ ایسے بھی ہیں جو پہلے توپرنٹ میڈیا سے وابستہ تھے اور ان کی ' تخلیقات' ادارتی ڈیسک کی چھلنی سے گذر کر عوام تک پہنچتی تھیں لیکن وہ جب ٹی وی سکرین کی زینت بنے تو ان کی اڑان روکنے والا کوئی نہیں رہا۔ایسے بھی ہیں جو صحافتی اخلاقیات اور اصولوں کو اچھی طرح سمجھتے ہیں لیکن بس رنگ میں رنگے گئے ہیں۔
Sunday, 20 September, 2009, 09:12 GMT 14:12 PST
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/09/090920…
question is who is right man in pakistan? [Dr Jawwad Khan]
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You and all the other Pakistanis means majority of Pakistanis are good.
@Jawwad
@Danial: don’t try to appease Jawwad. This quack’s sensationalist to his core and dwells on ignorance to feed each and everyone of his views.
Infact, let us enjoy a moment of pointing and laughing at his pitiful display of low self esteem.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (you can join in)
a perfect conspiracy theory!!!!
man! it sound far more bizarre than the presence of blackwater in pakistan.lolzzzzzz
what a joke….the BBC people are talking…
the same BBC which broadcast the news of indian invasion on 1965 with the pleasent surprise.
the same BBC whose reporter was known as 9th star of the flag used by combine opposition against bhutto…
pakistani media may have and do have some agenda of favouritism for specific poltical parties…but folks this media is far more better than the controlled media of india or the media of america especilly in the state of war.
the media in usa is in such a control that you can't even hear the questions about 9/11 raised by citizens of usa.
did you ever see the BBC telling the news about palestinians and kashmir….i tell you one trick i observed….whenever israel attacks on paletinian land and kills the innocent civilians, women,elderly and children, they start showing footage the angry mobs with ak47 in hands chanting death to israel…. and when a palestini kills a jew they show interview with tears and cries of relatives of the victim….
the same is true for kashmir..i observed the news of BBC they give the news only when there is collateral damage innocent civilians. athenic cleansing by indian forces was passed unnticed by this so called champions of freedom.
what are you trying to prove???
can we call it the evidence of the presence of blackwater in pakistan?
http://www.ummatpublication.com/2009/09/25/story3…