Peoples Resistance in Karachi condemns the violence against the Ahmedi community, yesterday in Lahore which leaves a blood trail of over 80 dead and dozens injured. In a land which was founded on the fact that there should be freedom to practice any religion, sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion.
It is sad that their place of worship was brutally attacked leaving behind dozens dead and a large number of injured. We as a civil society group in Karachi condemns all forms of religious intolerance and feels the need to show support to the Ahmedi community at this critical juncture.
A solidarity rally is being organized in Karachi Press Club today to out-rightly condemn violence against any religious sect and to also show our support for the sad loss of innocent lives in Lahore yesterday
Date: 29th May 2010
Time: 4:00pm
Its important that a large community of citizens show up, it will in effect help the suppressed Ahmedi community in Karachi to join us and maybe we can help share their grief. We as activists who support religious tolerance can be a buffer amongst our midst they can confidently express their sorrow in a very public way.
Comments
225 responses to “Karachi: Solidarity Rally for all Ahmedi victims in Lahore, 4:00pm Press Club”
@Mr Cut Pastia
Please read comment 3 again so no need to quote Hadees. The attackers, if were Muslims , have acted against Islam and should be given examplary punishment
Read your own Hate Speech – Talkhaba says: – May 29, 2010 at 1:55 pm People Resistance is group formed by the ex- communists/atheist. This rally has nothing to do with the Lahore incident rather aimed at defaming Islam.
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Do you have proof of their Kufr [Disbelief] if yes then give Shahadat and if not then read this:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِن جَاءكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَأٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَن تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ
O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. [AL-HUJRAAT (THE PRIVATE APARTMENTS, THE INNER APARTMENTS) Chapter 49 – Verse 6]
It was narrated that Hafs ibn `Asim said: The Messenger of Allah, Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: “It is enough lying for a man to speak of everything that he hears.” (Reported by Muslim)
Here the Prophet (peace be upon him) is telling us how evil it is to spread rumors. The Arabic word for rumor here is namîmah. It is a kind of rumor that is meant to foster animosity between people. Al-Râghib al-Isfahânî defines the word namîmah as follows [al-Nihâyah (5/120)]:
It is to relate to people what others say about them in order to bring about problems. It is said that this rumor-mongering also includes divulging secrets and exposing about people what they wish to keep concealed.
It is a serious sin to go back and forth between people with rumors of what they are saying about each other and what they are scheming to do. Hudhayfah heard about a man who was spreading rumors and he said: “I heard Allah’s Messenger say: ‘A rumor-monger will not enter Paradise’.” [Sahih Bukhari and Sahîh Muslim ]
Islami Laws???
Why did MMA presented Hasba Bill and why didn't the MMA Contested the Case against the decision of SC against Hasba Bill? If it was against Islam then why MMA presented Hasba Bill? If it was as per Islam then why did MMA accepted SC decision. Talking of Islam?????
General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution [Teeth maestro]
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Zia instigated Sectarianism and net Result:
آخری وقت اشاعت: Sunday, 5 April, 2009, 16:21 GMT 21:21 PST
چکوال کے غلام رضا کی کہانی
آصف فاروقی
بی بی سی اردو ڈاٹ کام، چکوال
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/04/090405_chakwal_story_nj.shtml
گھر سے قریب ہونے کے باعث امام بارگاہ کے بیشترانتظامی امور اسی محلے کے نوجوان انجام دیتے تھے۔ صفائی ستھرائی، پانی کی سبیلیں، حفاظتی انتظامات وغیرہ۔ اور اتوار کی دوپہر ہونے والے خودکش حملے کے بعد سب سے زیادہ لاشیں بھی اس محلے میں لائی گئیں۔
ساتھ ہی ایک دیوار پر لگے نوٹس بورڈ پر یہ تحریر ہاتھ سے لکھ کر چسپاں کی گئی ہے۔’لواحقین اپنی لاشیں وصول کرنے کے بعد چیک کر لیں اگر ان کے اعضاء پورے نہ ہوں تو ہسپتال انتظامیہ سے رابطہ کیا جائے‘۔
یہ تحریر بتا رہی تھی کہ اس ہسپتال میں لاشیں کس حالت میں لائی گئی ہوں گی۔ اسی ضمن میں مزید معلوم کرنے پر بتایا گیا کہ جو لاشیں درست حالت میں تھیں انہیں چارپائیاں مہیا کی گئی ہیں جبکہ ٹکڑوں کی شکل میں ہسپتال آنے والی لاشوں کے لیے لکڑی کے تابوت کا بندوبست کیا جا رہا ہے۔
Only three Murder/Killing are allowed in Islam [as per Quran and Sunnah]: Murderer, Adulterer and Apostate [Reference: Bukhari] – Ahmedi Community is living as Minority and Muslims particularly the State are duty bound to protect them.
NOTE: Even in the above cases of Punishments, only the State has the authority to administer punishment not the common mob. Assume that tomorrow some Ahle-Hadith rise and declare that Deobandis are Deviant Apostate then would it be justified to do the same as someone did in Lahore. Assume that some Deobandis issue a Fatwa of Apostasy against Barelvis then would it be justified to do what someone did in Lahore. Shia Community is the verge of such danger due to the Calamity of Fatwa Mongering. Pakistanis should wake up and stop interpreting Islamic Laws as per whims and desire particularly the new breed of Urban Maulvis which is the product of Aamir Liaquat Hussain and Co.
We [Muslims] must not forget that even during war following is not allowed:
“Do not kill the monks in monasteries” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship” (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).
“Punishment by fire does not behove anyone except the Master of the Fire” (Sunnan Abu Dawud).
The prophet (PBUH) is recorded as saying, “Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman” (Sunnan Abu Dawud).
1) The Prophet SallAllahu ‘Alaihi wa-sallam said: “March forth in the name of Allah…
Do not kill an old man, nor a child, nor a woman” [Ref: Sunnan Abu Dawud and Sunnan al-Bayhaqi]
2) According to the real Mufti – Ibn ‘Abbas – the Prophet would say upon despatching his armies: “March forth in the name of Allah! Fight those who disbelieve in Allah! But do not betray your trusts and covenants, nor should you kill children, nor monks in monasteries.” [Reference: Musnad
Ahmad with Hasan chain according to Ahmad Shakir]
3) According to Handhalah ibn al-Rabi’, the Prophet send a message to Khalid saying: “Do not ever kill children nor labourer” [Reference: Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, al-Hakim classified it Sahih and al-Dhahabi agreed.
4) 'Umar ibn al-Khattab said: "Fear Allah with regards to the farmers! Do not kill them unless that wage war against you" [Reference: Sunnan al-Bayhaqi and Ibn Abi Shaiba in his Musannaf]
5) Jabir – may Allah be pleased with him – said about the early Mujahideen, that “they would not kill the Mushrikeen traders”.
Islamic Code of Conduct in War.
The media presents many images of innocent women and children who are victims of jihadist suicide bombers. If jihadists use Islam to justify this violence, then Islamic teachings can also be used to discredit these abhorrent acts. In one Quranic verse, Prophet Muhammad comes across a slain woman while riding in battle, and he frowns with anger. His attitude prompted a distinct code of conduct among Islamic warriors which includes:
• No killing of women, children, and innocents―these might include hermits, monks, or other religious leaders who were deemed noncombatants;
• No wanton killing of livestock and animals;
• No burning or destruction of trees and orchards; and,
• No destruction of wells.
Abu Bakr, the fi rst caliph after Muhammad’s death, formulated a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct during war. He gave the following instructions to a Muslim army setting out for Syria, which was then governed by the Byzantine Empire: Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fi re, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy’s flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone. [Ref: Futhooh Al Baldan by Bilazari, Al Bidaya Wal Nihaya and Mawatta Imam Malik]
Aamir sb – I fully endorse your statement to say
@Aamir Mughal
I wrote a very long reply but because i'm using a phone i was going to submit it but made an error and the comment got deleted.
So here's a shorter version of it.
For the sake of remaining on topic. I dont agree with your first sentence, fine for the sake of keeping this short and on topic i agree that kill the murderer and adulterer but i DONT agree with kill the apostate and here are some quotes to why not.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
The Glorious Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.
"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief – Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path." Surah An-Nisa', 4:137.
For example, the Qur'an says: "Let him who wishes to believe, do so; and let him who wishes to disbelieve, do so." (Al-Kahf: 29)
In another verse, Allah Almighty says: "Yours is only the duty to convey the message; you are not a guardian over them." (Al-Ghashiyah: 21- 22)
"When ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme." [Qur'an 4:140]
". . . But they uttered blasphemy . . . if they repent, it will be best for them, but if they turn back, Allah will punish them." [Qur'an 9:47]
"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [Qur'an 7:199]
"Allah is with those who restrain themselves." [Qur'an 16: 128]
"And if you punished, let your punishment be proportionate to the wrong that has been done to you; but if you show patience, that is indeed the best course. [Qur'an 16:126]
Okay so awesome i can copy and paste (ive had mulitple arguments with people on this and other topics and thus keep quotes handy). I would explain them again but im hoping that you understand the gist of what i'm saying but to summarize a 2000 word discussion 'ignore apostates, and if you feel threatened than act with using knowledge not fists and if the other person still doesnt understand than turn the other cheek and know that Allah will deal with them.
disclaimer – i dont pretend to know everything about islam but these are my two cents it, i dont know everything i'm only a teenager. If you think i'm wrong than okay thats your belief but this is mine. Just remember that one day if i'm wrong god will punish me and be content with that.
Danial Ahmed says: – May 29, 2010 at 1:53 pm – @Aamir Mughal
but i DONT agree with kill the apostate
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Prophet Mohammad [PBUH]'s Hadith is final for me. If you are not agree then it would be your opinion.
maughal
Your life only surrounds on theoretical Islam.
Give me any Muslim state where even 50% such principles are applied.
There are no traces of any such values which you all time pickled from history pages.
Pakistan has become failed state for long time it is showing negative trends for delivering any single order , you mentioned here as part of short lived golden history.
You are in favor of Blasphemy laws same do those who are trained for such kind of killings.
They also claim to be strong follower of Prophet and throughout such massacre on unarmed civilian they raise slogans like Allah akbar and nara takbeer.
You have got an opportunity to prove your point through power of knowledge but under prvilged and Low IQ people are trained like that in our country.
You people through your vast knowldege provide them silent fuel who believe superiority of particular sect through show of power.
So they are doing what they get training.
So dont cry on spilled milk.
You people favour extrmsim through restrcited laws.
For elite class we bring the examples of life styles of Jinnah and Iqbal like people and for poor class you pick Holy Quran , stray mullahs and their conflicted fatwas.
We have proved many times through live deadly examples that non whabi groups are most vulnerable community of Pakistan any time any where.
as you said
Ahmedi Community is living as Minority and Muslims particularly the State are duty bound to protect them.
Latest massacre is clear example of this duty bound temperament of Muslims in Pakistan.
Nazia says: – May 30, 2010 at 11:28 pm maughal Your life only surrounds on theoretical Islam.
MAM: Dear Ms. Nazia, if you little time left then please read the message number 1 of mine [as per you Theocratic Islam], I have condemned "This Brazen Act of Barbarity and Butchery" through the Hadith of Prophet Mohammad [PBUH]. I damn care if you or anybody else declare the Clear Message above" a Theocratic Islam [There is no Theocracy in Islam]
NAZIA: Give me any Muslim state where even 50% such principles are applied.
MAM: If Muslims are not following the Message then don't blame Islam.
NAZIA: you mentioned here as part of short lived golden history.
MAM: Post number 1 consist upon Commandments not History.
NAZIA: You are in favor of Blasphemy laws same do those who are trained for such kind of killings.
MAM: I still support Blasphemy Law but would not support this Barbarity in Lahore in the name of Islam rather it was a Slap and Insult/Blot on the Face of Islam.
NAZIA: They also claim to be strong follower of Prophet and throughout such massacre on unarmed civilian they raise slogans like Allah akbar and nara takbeer.
MAM: Then they should be punished because Shariah doesn't allow anybody to become State and administer Punishment and what happened in Lahore was no punishment but clearly a Mass Murder [against the very basic principle of Islam]
NAZIA: You have got an opportunity to prove your point through power of knowledge but under prvilged and Low IQ people are trained like that in our country.
MAM: Every Muslims is ordered to learn Quran and Hadith and
should clear the doubts prevailing amongst masses.
NAZIA: You people through your vast knowldege provide them silent fuel who believe superiority of particular sect through show of power.
MAM: Where did any of my posts fuel people to resort to murder. Prove it?
NAZIA: as you said Ahmedi Community is living as Minority and Muslims particularly the State are duty bound to protect them.
MAM: Yes, I have said that and stand by it they are minority because Constitution says so and even if they are minority we Muslims as individual and in collective capacity are duty bound to protect Non-Muslim Citizens of Pakistan. I differ with Extreme Prejudice with Jamat-e-Islami, Taliban, Deobandis, Barelvis and Shias but "DIFFERENCE OF OPINION" doesn't give me the right to attack or kill them.
Nazia says: – May 30, 2010 at 11:28 pm maughal Your life only surrounds on theoretical Islam.
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Dear Ms. Nazia,
You may call it theocracy but what happened in Lahore was completely against the Spirit of Islam. No doubt Quadiyanis are Non Muslims [as per Constitution too] but they are Pakistanis [constitution says this] as well and their Rights cannot be violated and if somebody violate these Rights [that too when they were practicing their religion within their Community Centres without bothering anybody] then these Violation would be termed violation of the following sayings of Prophet Mohammad [PBUH]:
قتل غير المسلم إذا كان مُعاهدا معصية وكبيرة من كبائر الذنوب ، فقد روى البخاري عن عبد الله بن عمرو بن العاص رضي الله عنهما قال : قال صلى الله عليه وسلم : " من قتل معاهدا لم يرح رائحة الجنة وإنّ ريحها يوجد من مسيرة أربعين يوما " . وأما الكافر الحربي غير المعاهد وغير الذمّي فالمسلم مأمور بقتله لقوله تعالى : ( قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة ) وهذا إنما يكون في الجهاد مع إمام من أئمة المسلمين أو من ينوب عنه
جب غیر مسلم معاھد ہو یعنی اس کے ساتھ معاھدہ ہوتواس کا قتل معصیت وگناہ اورکبیرہ گناہ میں سے ہے ۔
امام بخاری رحمہ اللہ تعالی نے عبداللہ بن عمروبن عاص رضی اللہ تعالی عنہما سے روایت کیا ہے کہ :
رسول اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے فرمایا :
( جس نے بھی کسی معاھد کوقتل کیا وہ جنت کی خوشبوبھی حاصل نہيں کرسکتا ، حالانکہ اس کی خوشخبو چالیس یوم کی مسافت سے پائي جاتی ہے ) ۔
Killing a non-Muslim when he is a mu’aahid (one of those who have a peace treaty with the Muslims) is a sin, one of the major sins. Imam Bukhari narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever kills a mu’aahid will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, even though its fragrance may detected from a distance of forty days.’”
Wisdom comes with time!
Lets hope you learn a little more today!
Read the 'word by word' translation of the following verse!! (& check out for urself)
"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance (4:138)."
I f killing (physical punishment for a moral crime) was to be the punishment, then "again disbeleve" shudnt have been there.The verse incidentally refutes the baseless allegation that apostasy in Islam is punishable with death. If Quran says this & the Hadith goes against it, which cannot be, then the hadith is taken to be nullified.
Wisdom comes with time!
Lets hope you learn a little more today!
Read the ‘word by word’ translation of the following verse!! (& check out for urself)
“Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance (4:138).”
I f killing (physical punishment for a moral crime) was to be the punishment, then “again disbeleve” shudnt have been there.The verse incidentally refutes the baseless allegation that apostasy in Islam is punishable with death. If Quran says this & the Hadith goes against it, which cannot be, then the hadith is taken to be nullified.
ahmed talha says: – May 31, 2010 at 1:32 am Wisdom comes with time! Lets hope you learn a little more today!
Read the ‘word by word’ translation of the following verse!! (& check out for urself) “Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance (4:138).”
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Dear Talha Sahab,
No doubt Wisdom comes with time provided when Quranic Verse is written/quote properly and written with open eyes.
The actual and real Verse is Verse number 137 not 138 as you have quoted above.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً
Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way. [AN-NISA (WOMEN) Chapter 4 – Verse 137]
And do read the next verses particularly 138 and 139 to complete the whole context.
I f killing (physical punishment for a moral crime) was to be the punishment, [Ahmed Talha]
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What should be done with the Rapist [Rape is a Moral Crime]? Should we receive Rapists with Garland? Should we receive those who with garland "who made women to march naked in market [happened during the Times of Commander of the Faithful General Ziaul Taghoot". Should we receive those who are involved in Forced/Bonded Labour with Garland.
Shouldn't their heads be chopped for good publicly.
I f killing (physical punishment for a moral crime) was to be the punishment, [Ahmed Talha]
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Rapists/Molesters/Anarchists deserve this [rightly]:
Two police officers beheaded in Saudi Arabia So far for 2009, there have been 11 beheadings in the Oil Kingdom. The record was set in 2007 with 153 such executions. Monday, February 23, 2009 By Spero News http://www.speroforum.com/a/18254/Two-police-offi…
People Resistance is group formed by the ex-communists/atheist. This rally has nothing to do with the Lahore incident rather aimed at defaming Islam.
What the hells the sentence mean the writers write-up
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Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
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Does this learned writer know what that "Certain Laws" mean? What does free practice mean?
This people resistance has never agitated against the killings of thousands of innocent Pukhtoons by both American Terrorist and our own army
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
========================
Since you are a fan of Zia therefore tell me where was the ISLAM in that address of General Zia in White House [do you understand the meaning of Toast – It was not of Aab-e-Zamzam but Toast of Aab-e-Shaitan, so support Zia: Toasts of President Reagan and President Mobammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan at the State Dinner December 7, 1982 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=4…
@Talkhaba: Taking out rallies does not defame Islam. Killing innocent people does.
Ironic, Teethman had been critical of Zaid Hamid vis vi being associated with Yousuf Kazzab.
You should not curtail Yousuf Kazzabs religion either. They are even a smaller minority than the Qaidanis. They should be protected? no?
Sorry, teethman, I guess that was Mughals quote which I thought was yours..
skeptic says: – May 30, 2010 at 6:41 am – Sorry, teethman, I guess that was Mughals quote which I thought was yours..
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skeptic says: – May 30, 2010 at 6:38 am Ironic, Teethman had been critical of Zaid Hamid vis vi being associated with Yousuf Kazzab. You should not curtail Yousuf Kazzabs religion either. They are even a smaller minority than the Qaidanis. They should be protected? no?
===================
Dear Sir,
Summary of Zaid Hamid debate is as under: Zaid Hamid, Saints, Knowledge of Unseen & Ghazwa-e-Hind.
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/03/zaid-ham…
NO
As a matter of fact the killing of AhmedisQadianis is the most unfortunate thing for me. I am upset not only because innocent human beings have been killed while they were busy worshiping but also because the greedy creature on this unfortunate part of earth who don’t spare ridicule their own religion for sake of earning more dollars will direct their guns towards the Islamic Laws
guns towards the Islamic Laws
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Talkhaba says: – May 29, 2010 at 2:46 pm @Mr Cut Pastia
Please read comment 3 again so no need to quote Hadees. The attackers, if were Muslims , have acted against Islam and should be given examplary punishment
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Which Islamic Laws in Quran and Hadith allow Processions [Rabiul Awwal, Moharram, Youm-e-Farooq, Youm-e-Siddiq Akbar, Youm-e-Uthman, and Jashn-e-Mawlud-e-Kaba]?????
guns towards the Islamic Laws
========================
What about GEO TV’s Campaign against Hudood Law????
sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion.
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Quite True! the Zakat Laws invoked during Zia's Time to counter Shia Community rather tinkering with their Fiqh but one couldn't understand Shia's participation in MMA [A Political Alliance of Religious Political Parties] wherein there are several Religious Parties whose books are riddled with Anti Shia Fatwas.
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
============================
Isn't it strange that Zia didn't ban any Polytheistic Practices like Milad, Moharram Processions and Gathering on Shrines rather Zia promoted Imam Ahmed Raza Conference Officially. Everybody knows what happened during 12 Rabiul Awwal.
Islamic Laws?
Shariah Courts should start Proceedings against several TV Channels for promoting “Bayhayai-Fahashi and Wantonly Shameless Women Newscasters and Women Hosts” through several of their outlets Media outlets. TV Channels are destroying the Islamic Morals of Pakistan by promoting “Adult Dramas” in Prime Time which cannot be watched with Mothers, Daughters and Sisters. Most of the Women Anchors wear and flash their “Extremely Captivating Figures” in Indecent Dresses which is paving the way of perverting young minds and playing havoc with the Hormones of youngsters even Elders are sometime take medicines to cool down Blood Pressure. Mufti Muneeb Ur Rehman and Mufti Naeem of Jamia Binnoria should issue a Fatwa of Banning Women Journalists and Anchorperson from working in any TV Channel, mixing of Opposite sexes is not allowed in Islam. They should call back their women host [sent in Northern Area to cover Hunza] with a male member. Lets follow Islam in Letter and Spirit.
Even the Voice of a Woman is “Pardah” because Awrat means “Hiding” in Arabic [Ref: Al Munajjid]. No Male Newscaster should be allowed who doesn’t have Beard and Trimmed Mustaches.
Women have one Invisible Satan with her and there are two Satans with Clean shave boys. [Zammul Hawa by Ibn Jawzi Translated name "Ishq-e-Majazi Ki Tabahkariyan]
“Cherub News Casters” should be banned forthwith. Aamir Liaquat lecture Pakistanis on Beard whereas his Owner Mir Shakil ur Rehman [Owner of Geo News] is still Pappu.
Ansar Abbasi talks of Islam but his beard is not prescribed as ordered in Shariah rather Ansar Abbasi’s beard is “Rafizi/Jamati Cut” – Nadia Khan Show should be banned and she should be brought in the Shariah Court for her innuendos. Sana Bucha of Crisis Cell should only be allowed to host the show if she is in Hijab. List goes on and on.
@Amir Mughal: I think you take many things in Islam totally out of context. If we study the proper history of our religion, many of the conclusions that you draw above & in fact are drawn by extreme rightists can be refuted.
Dear AI,
I have studied the History of Islam properly in Tabari, Al Bidaya Wal Nhihaya, Ibn Khaldun, Tabaqat Ibn Saad and countless other books. Suggest some more if you like I have full Library.
many of the conclusions that you draw above & in fact are drawn by extreme rightists can be refuted. [A1]
=========================
These Jamatis have wrongly created the Term "Rightist" and linked it with Islam and some pragmatic Leftists [to ghet some vote] also linked Islam with the left and that is the biggest Joke rather Insult to Islam. Right and Left is basically a Secular Theory and invented after WW 2, Islam is a Universal Way of Life and it has nothing to do with Right or Left. Islam cannot be imprisoned in Right or Left.
I stand by my statement on TV Channels above.
Al says: May 29, 2010 at 7:57 pm @Amir Mughal: I think you take many things in Islam totally out of context.
——————————-
Dear A1,
I was talking in the context mentioned below because this Channel also telecast Alimon Line GEO TV comprising Aamir Liaquat Hussain who lecture about Islam, tell me is it allowed in Islam: Golden Girls – Hamid Mir – Part 1 of 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtMrtyVe7NQ
Where are the "Mehrem" of these Women? Why they are on TV without their Husband, Brothers, Sons, and Fathers and if you tolerate this then wind up Fraud like Alim On Line.
@Aamir Mughal: The term right or left is not used in the same context as when talking about western nations. And i think most people understand what is meant by left & right when talking about religion. Those on the right take a literalistic interpretation of religion with no room left for reason.
I don't have that vast reading of books as you have. I was referring to your literal interpretation of things like the voice of a women is also 'purdah' which if true would refute several Hadith which describe women asking questions from the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The Prophet (PBUH) used to manage Hazrat Khadija's (RA) business for her which couldn't be possible without communicating. There are other examples as well which really do not support this interpretation.
Similarly the condition of not traveling without a mehram was based on the society at that time & has to be looked at in terms of present requirements. Islam does permit us to reason – we have no right to change the fundamentals – but we are allowed to reason – Islam is a religion for all times to come & Allah has provided us that flexibility.
Otherwise we can make all the laws we want but they will be irrelevant as no one is going to follow them. For example, coffee or kahwa that was used by Sufis & was popular among the Ottomon Turks – it was outlawed through a fatwa by the ulema of the time. However since it was so popular the fatwa ended up being irrelevant. Similarly, the microphone was termed Haram in the sub-continent when it initially came out – What happened? We muslims have forgotten the ability to reason that our own religion encourages.
Regarding Geo TV, i agree with your observations. They are in it for the money – they will show whatever will sell. If half dressed women are going to sell they will show that too.
Al says: May 30, 2010 at 2:32 am
I don’t have that vast reading of books as you have. I was referring to your literal interpretation of things like the voice of a women is also ‘purdah’ which if true would refute several Hadith which describe women asking questions from the Holy Prophet (PBUH). [A1]
MAM: The voice/manner in which women used to ask question was quite different from the voice/manners TV ANNOUNCERS/ANCHOR use [called Provocative] – Tell me why Women cannot say "Azan" or lead prayers as Imam [except of women wherein the Imam Woman would stand with other prayer followers and not like Male Imam who stand in Hujra and prayer followers follow them by keeping themselves one "Saf" behind] That's why "Awrat" means Pardah or Hiding.
The Prophet (PBUH) used to manage Hazrat Khadija’s (RA) business for her which couldn’t be possible without communicating. [A1]
MAM: Read the dates of Death of Khudaija [May Allah be pleased with her] and Orders of Veil. The Revelation [Wahy/Ihkam] on Veil were received after Migration to Medina.
A1: Islam does permit us to reason.
MAM: No doubt reasoning is allowed where there are no clear instructions but Reasoning like Muatzillites [Rationalist] is called Deviancy, e.g. Sir Syed Ahmed and others had said "Jinns are Rural People not some Supernatural entities." Where would you put Surah Jinn and above all Satan [A Jinn as mentioned in Quran on numerous places]
For example, coffee or kahwa that was used by Sufis & was popular among the Ottomon Turks – it was outlawed through a fatwa by the ulema of the time. [A1]
=
MAM: Fatwa was wrong rather Fatwa was issued without knowledge because Kahwa wasn't declared Haram anywhere in Quran and Hadith. Haram are very few things and clearly mentioned in Quran and Hadith and where "Allah is silent one should avail the opportunity to eat whatever he/she like – Evidence: Salman al-Farsi [May Allah be pleased with him] reported that when the Messenger of Allah (peace be on him) was asked about animal fat, cheese, and fur, he replied, "The halal is that which Allah has made lawful in His Book and the haram is that which He has forbidden, and that concerning which He is silent He has permitted as a favor to you." [Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah]
يُرِيدُ اللّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلاَ يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ
…Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire hardship for you…. [AL-BAQARA (THE COW) Chapter 2 – Verse 185]
@Amir Mughal:
I am not arguing about the origins of the word. I don't know about that but i think 'aurat' is not an arabic word. Tone of voice is a different thing. But having a purdah of the voice is totally different.
Two points about our Prophet (PBUH) managing Hazrat Khadija's business: It did not matter when any of the revelations came. The Prophet (PBUH) was masoom. He was never involved in anything that was wrong, immoral or illegal.
Second, as regards the various revelations, there were some addressing all believing women & some very specific instructions for the Prophets (PBUH) wives. I don't know about the timing of the revelations & it may be as you say. In those verses referring to the wives of the Prophet, they were specifically asked among other things to talk from behind a veil when talking with na-mehram men & watch their tones lest anyone misinterprets. These laws were there because the wives of the Prophet occupy a special status in Islam. They were also not allowed to remarry after the Prophet's death. If these conditions were applicable on all believing women then the condition of not remarrying after their husbands death would also apply.
Where the orders of veil are given there is no direct orders to women that imply that they should observe purdah of the voice as well.
Of course the tone of voice should be proper & this is an understood thing. Otherwise a woman in a burqa can be more flirtatious and attract more attention than a woman who is wearing normal clothes but keeps her dignity. Hijaab does not just relate to the clothes but to behavior, intention, & attitude – the way she talks, walks & behaves.
Regarding Sir Syed Ahmed, the debate about jinn is really meaningless & a waste of time. He could believe whatever he wanted about Jinn but it wouldn't change the Quran & it wouldn't change anyones' eeman or how they practiced religion. These are the types of meaningless debates that we have reduced our religion to. Like it is said when Baghdad was falling at the hands of the Mongols, the Ulema were busy debating whether a jinn could pass through a needle-head or not.
The fatwa on kahwa was given because it is an addictive substance. It was used by sufis' to stay up at night. Islam does not prohibit each & every drug & alcoholic drink by name but it is the reasoning behind the prohibition of alcohol that is the basis for terming other forms of nasha haraam. It was an extension of the logic although i agree it was an ill-thought one.
Al says: – May 30, 2010 at 12:09 pm @Amir Mughal: I am not arguing about the origins of the word. I don’t know about that but i think ‘aurat’ is not an arabic word. Tone of voice is a different thing. But having a purdah of the voice is totally different.
====================
Awrat is an Arabic Word extracted from "Awratina" means Private and Hidden [for reference read a Dua in Qunoot-e-Nazila]
The fatwa on kahwa was given because it is an addictive substance. It was used by sufis’ to stay up at night. Islam does not prohibit each & every drug & alcoholic drink by name but it is the reasoning behind the prohibition of alcohol that is the basis for terming other forms of nasha haraam. It was an extension of the logic although i agree it was an ill-thought one.
=========================
Fatwa was issued with knowledge of Quran and Hadith [Unnecessary Fatwa Mongering is discouraged in Islam for details read I'laam ul Muwaqqi'een 'an Rabb il 'Aalameen Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya (pupil of Ibn Taymiyah] – Note on Prohibition on Alcohol and Narcotics and General Zia's service for Islam through Narcotics is as under: Narcotics, Drug Trade and Islam http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/narcotic…
* Correction: "Fatwa was issued without knowledge" – Ottomans were the ones who encouraged 4 Imams within one Ka'aba to lead prayers and it was the Joke with Islam as well. During the time of Fardh Prayers 4 Imams used to lead Prayers in Ka'abah when Arabia was under Ottomans. That's how the Ottomans ran the Khilafa and when Khilafa was abolished half of the Ottoman Caliphs and their families took exile in Switzerland and USA. They prefer Europe and USA for exile rather than a Muslim Country. All kind of Bida'at "Innovation" in Hijaz were promoted by Ottomans particularly the Deviancy of Sufiism.
@Amir Mughal: I am not supporting the Ottomons. It wasn't a Khilafat but an empire. Whoever was able to gain control of territories through power declared themselves Khalifa – legitimacy was earned through power not by any right.
Actually when Ataturk ended the office of Khilafat, the empire had already disintegrated. Turkey itself was only saved because of Ataturk & other Turk nationalists, otherwise it would have been divided between the European allies as well. The entire Ottomon family was forced into exile by Ataturk.
Regarding Sir Syed Ahmed, the debate about jinn is really meaningless & a waste of time. [A1]
================
Sir Syed and other Muslim Rationalist to impress "Raj" denied the Demonic Possession and Jinns but look what the West has found in Discovery Channel: Demon Exorcism of Possessed Girl Caught on Camera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWUFtTXHyhI
Narration is to be listened attentively.
Discovery Channel: Demon Exorcism of Possessed
====================
You and Ms. Nazia may think that I am kind of freak show or zombie but I have personally watched these cases [I know the difference between epilepsy and demonic possession] and what I have witnesses was quite horrible [both mentally and physically for the patient]
@Mr CUT PASTIA [Mughal]
I have asked about the Laws which have restricted Ahmedis from free practice
مگر آپ کا کیا کیا جائے۔ عادت سے مجبور ہیں آپ لمبے لمبے تبصرے کرنے کا جن کا نہ پیر ہوتا ہے اور نہ ہی سر
Dear Sir,
I may be a sinner of worst kind but I cannot dare to say what you have said above on Hadiths and Islamic Laws which was my earlier meassage [Post number 1] read your own words.
“QUOTE”
@Mr CUT PASTIA [Mughal]I have asked about the Laws which have restricted Ahmedis from free practice
مگر آپ کا کیا کیا جائے۔ عادت سے مجبور ہیں آپ لمبے لمبے تبصرے کرنے کا جن کا نہ پیر ہوتا ہے اور نہ ہی سر
“UNQUOTE”
Matam Kijiey
“QUOTE”
Allama Abbas Kumaili while offering condolence on Metro TV said “No doubt Quadiyanis are Kaafir [Mussallima Taur Par] but nobody has the right to riddle them with bullets and that too in the House of Worship.
“UNQUOTE”
Dear Mr Talkhaba,
Read the Hadith above and do read the news filed in the newspapers. Ahmedis/Quadiyanis were practicing their religion within the four walls without bothering anyone. Islam was violated by the attackers, read the Hadith and then resort to bad mouthing:
“Do not kill the monks in monasteries” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship” (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).
Monasteries are not Masjid but Khanqah and Ibadat Gah.
ex-communists/atheist – Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
============================
===========================
Jamat-e-Islami and Shia together in MMA but Mawdudi had said:
Abul-A'la Maududi: wrote an introduction to the book, "Ar-Riddah bain al-Ams wa al-Yaum" In it was written, regarding the Imami Ja'fari Shia, "despite their moderate views (relative to other shi'ia sects), they are swimming in disbelief like white bloodcells in blood or like fish in water."
During Zia's Rule most sectarian violence in Pakistan takes place in the province of Punjab and the country's commercial capital, Karachi, in Sindh province and Northern Area. There have also been outbreaks in Quetta, capital of Balochistan province. It is estimated that around 4,000 people have been killed in Shia-Sunni violence since the 1980s across Pakistan. These Clashes started after Zia forced Zakat Laws on Shias contrary to their Interpretation.
Another quick somersault of Mawdudi on Shia Community.
"QUOTE"
In a book titled, 'Two brothers – Maududi and Khomeini' page 129, the following statement of Dr Ahmad Farouk Maududi (son of Abul-A'ala Maududi) was published in Roz Naame, Lahore – 29 September 1979, "Allama Khomeini had a very old and close relationship with Abba Jaan (father). Aayaatullah Khomeini translated his (fathers) books in Farsi and included it as a subject in Qum. Allama Khomeini met my father in 1963 during Hajj and my father's wish was to create a revolutionary in Pakistan similar to Iran. He was concerned about the success of the Iranian revolution till his last breath.'
"UNQUOTE"
General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution [Teethmaestro]
=======================
Net Result: ’طالبان اور فرقہ واریت کا گٹھ جوڑ‘
عبدالحئی کاکڑ
بی بی سی اردو ڈاٹ کام، پشاو
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2008/01/…
وقتِ اشاعت: Sunday, 20 January, 2008, 05:48 GMT 10:48 PST
Solidarity with every victim of terrorism irrespective of cast, creed, color, race etc. Good move. May Allah bless you. I have read some comments about Islamic Laws. Why not impose amputation, rijm etc or is it that your Islam completes by lawfully persecuting religious minorities. Come on don't be hypocrite. Neither our Laws are Islamic nor our country. Everything is what suits us best at times. We wear Islam, preach Islam but do not practice it. Period. In other words what Dr. Israr said publicly many times "Pakistanis as a people are the greatest hypocrites in the world." The daily Pakistan, Lahore, January 3, 2009
Dr. Israr said publicly many times “Pakistanis as a people are the greatest hypocrites in the world.” The daily Pakistan, Lahore, January 3, 2009
=========================
That's why Late. Dr Israr Ahmed [Former Deputy of Mawududi] while on Pakistani TV Channel talked about Making Indians – Hindus "Zimmis" and used to visit India regularly where the "Indian Secular Government" used to welcome Dr Israr Ahmed and allow him to address Huge Crowd [organized by IRF DR Zakir Naik] in "Kaafir Mulk". Wah Sahab.
Aamir Mughal Sahib
I am not concerned about what Dr. Israr did in India or in Pakistan. I strongly disagree with Dr. Israr's views about minorities of Pakistan. However what he said about hypocrisy of our nation is a piece of gem.
what he said about hypocrisy of our nation is a piece of gem. Anwar Ahmad]
=======================
Dear Anwar Sahab,
You are correct.
In view of "what a Tragedy! Several years ago whenever something Tragic used to happen in Pakistan the TV used to observe mourning and used to share the grief. Nowadays not a single TV Channel stops their Entertainment Programs even for a Minute."
I agree.
Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] used to stand up whenever there was a Funeral passed his way, he [PBUH] used to honour the Funeral of even the Non-Muslim Citizens in Medina [Ref: Bukhari]
Dear Mughal sahib you and Dr Awab should jointv and start bolta pakistan again .
I love your writing better to merge your blog in teeth.com.pk.
Janab Roda,
Where is Bolta Pakistan now??? They have joined PML Q "DUNYA TV":)LOL
Killing is becoming a joyfull pass time of our mullas .
Gov is not blind at all ,we public too know that is some masajid the preaching of killing done on weekly basis.
Visit a masjid located in momina abad near bijli nagar orangi town number 4.
On every Sunday evening the imported molvi give bhashan to kill all those who do not fallow there sect.
you can find such molvies in kachi abadies near you.
This game of killing will not end till public them self start a movement and gov give public a trust that there name and information will not reach back to killers and there preachers.
May Allah safe us and our country .
Sir,
What a Tragedy! Several years ago whenever something Tragic used to happen in Pakistan the TV used to observe mourning and used to share the grief. Nowadays not a single TV Channel stops their Entertainment Programs even for a Minute. Be it an Attack on Innocent Villagers in FATA, OR Imam Bargah or Masjid. What a shame. Go and watch yourself the TV Transmission of every Channel.
We are finding two hands.
Khufia Hath & Gher mulki Hath.
Be careful, Jamaati supported Taliban would be on the lookout for you guys.
Here is a clue for you.
وَإِن يَمْسَسْكَ اللّهُ بِضُرٍّ فَلاَ كَاشِفَ لَهُ إِلاَّ هُوَ وَإِن يَمْسَسْكَ بِخَيْرٍ فَهُوَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدُيرٌ
If Allah touch thee with affliction, there is none that can relieve therefrom save Him, and if He touch thee with good fortune (there is none that can impair it); for He is Able to do all things. [AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK) Chapter 6 Verse 17]
you are as ignorant as Americans because ideology preached by Talibans entirely different from Modudi. Go and brush up your knowledge first before you decide to join a public forum
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
—————————-
I am curious how many people agree with this statement?
If you agree then do would you allow free practice of any new claimant to prophet hood like Yousuf Kazzab?
Then again, if a self claimed Prophet Asim arose and claimed prophethood, should his followers be allowed to practice feely? Supposing his religion was basically islam with only one difference, he said that making caricatures and picture of prophets is no longer a big deal and allowed by this new islam?
Non-Muslims are not allowed Islam to openly preach their Religion but the are allowed to practice their religion within the boundary of their Houses, Community Centers and Monasteries.
"The one who wrongs a covenanter or impairs his right or overworks him or forcibly takes something from him, I will be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment"[Narrated by Abu Dawood in his Sunan, and Sunan an-Nasa'i]
He [PBUH] also says: "The one who kills a covenanter will never smell the scent of heaven and its scent is found at the distance of forty years."[Bukhari]
Read Sunnah and Fiqh on the Rights of Non-Muslim Citizens.
One thing I should mention here that Yousuf was a Member in Zia's Majlis-e-Shura.
Read newspapers of Zia era and situation will be very clear when you will be reading the details of Sectarian Clashes between Barelvi-Deobandi and Sunni Shia and most of these Clashes were caused by Zia due to his tinkering in Law to prolong his rule just like Musharraf. [Like Musharraf Zia had in his Cabinet a very key Advisor on Law i.e. Sharifuddin Pirzada] – Don't your remember Naked Procession of Women taken out in Multan to settle personal score during General Zia's Dark Period. Don't you remember Cleansing of Shia Community in Karachi in 1984 and then in Kurram Agency [for your information Musharraf was a Key Operative in Northern Areas to monitor that cleansing]
How about some "Objection" on some of the Practices in which the majority of Pakistani Muslims are indulged??? Look around Shahbaz Qalandar, Abdullah Shah Ghazi and Data Darbar or if you want closer look then watch closely some of the practices in Multan and Lahore where Milk [45% Pakistanis are living below poverty line and facing food inflation] is used to Bathe Graves and Shrines.
إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاء وَمَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَى إِثْمًا عَظِيمًا
Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. [AN-NISA (WOMEN) Chapter 4 – Verse 48]
Holy Prophet Muhammad {PBUH} prayed: O Allah! Don’t let them make my grave an Idol lest it be worshipped. Then said Curse of Allah descended upon those who turned the graves of their Prophets {PBUT} into mosques. {Mauta Imam Malik}.
Holy Prophet Muhammad {PBUH} said: Be warned of the practice of those people who used to turn the graves of their Prophets and Saints into mosques I forbade you. {Muslim}.
skeptic says: May 30, 2010 at 6:38 am Ironic, You should not curtail Yousuf Kazzabs religion either. They are even a smaller minority than the Qaidanis. They should be protected? no?
===================
Glimpse of Pakistani Muslims: Tahir Ul Qadri Dancers reply – Tahir ul Qadri Lovers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMiM6OEoni0&fe…
skeptic says: May 30, 2010 at 6:38 am Ironic, You should not curtail Yousuf Kazzabs religion either. They are even a smaller minority than the Qaidanis. They should be protected? no?
===================
From where in Quran and Hadith please do mention if you find any Proof in Islam for this: Saifi Naqshbandi Zikr , Muslims in Wajd , ecstasy in deep love of Allah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdcAY7XO5fE&fe…
"It is sad that their place of worship was brutally attacked leaving behind dozens dead and a large number of injured. We as a civil society group in Karachi condemns all forms of religious intolerance -"
I suppose a "civil society group" is needed in Pakistan; civil law doesn't seem to apply much any more.
Speaking out about it is a bare first step. The next one is getting action taken. Do you trust your politicians to do so? How many of you have decided to enter politics yourselves to do something about this?
Solomon my friend, preaching begins from home so better you preach your Israelites first than preach others.
Adnan! It's been a long time! Your site still does strange things to my computers. That's why I had to stop visiting it.
"preaching begins from home so better you preach your Israelites -"
First, Pakistani perceptions of Israel and Jews are warped by prejudice, social pressure, and censorship. Second, us Jews don't have the same needs Pakistanis do; indeed, we HAVE experienced many of the same problems and suffered or learned to solve them. So by your measure, it's entirely appropriate that I be here, isn't it?
The fact that the West – and Israel – have solved, or alleviated, so many ills is both good and bad. Good, because we don't experience the problems Pakistan does any more, at least not to a great extent; bad, because we as individuals cannot hope to strive the same distance as Pakistanis like you have the opportunity to do and thus achieve great merit in G-d's eyes.
We strongly condemn the attacks on Ahmadi's worship places, this is extremely brutality and responsible of this act deserve for serious punishment. Loss of lives can't be appreciated.
But, the mind set of accusing Late Zia ul Haq for developing some so called 'discriminatory" laws, is also not correct and this approach also need to examine.
I want o draw the attention of readers that few atheist, communists, socialists have come forward on the name of NGOs, Community development partners or Civil society.
Yesterday night six people have killed in Karachi in target killing, can any one will arrange rally for them? hundreds killed in other incidents of target killing, did you observed any rally? On cartoon issue have you observed any rally? Against Drone attacks have you seen any rally?
You will see the play cards against blasphemy law which is a hidden agenda of this rally.
But, the mind set of accusing Late Zia ul Haq for developing some so called ‘discriminatory” laws, is also not correct and this approach also need to examine.
=====================
Zia's contribution for Israel:
"QUOTE"
Late Maj Gen Aboobaker Osman Mitha [The Only Memon General of Pakistan Army and he founded the Special Service Group (SSG – Commando Division of the Pakistan Army) posthumously published autobiography, Unlikely Beginnings. According to Gen Mitha, it was Gul Hasan who saved Brig Zia-ul-Haq, as he then was, from being sacked. Zia was in Jordan. The year was 1971. Gen Yahya received a signal from Maj Gen Nawazish, the head of the Pakistan military mission in Amman, asking that Zia be court-martialled for disobeying GHQ orders by commanding a Jordanian armour division against the Palestinians in which thousands were slaughtered. That ignominious event is known as Operation Black September. It was Gul Hasan who interceded for Zia and had Yahya let him off. Mitha was treated very badly. His Hilal-i-Jurat was withdrawn in February 1972, something that also appears to have been Gul Hasan’s handiwork.
"UNQUOTE"
King Hussein (with help from Zia-ul-Haq of the Pakistani army) sent in his Bedouin army on 27 September to clear out the Palestinian bases in Jordan. A massacre of innumerable proportions ensued. Moshe Dayan noted that Hussein "killed more Palestinians in eleven days than Israel could kill in twenty years." Dayan is right in spirit, but it is hardly the case that anyone can tch the Sharonism in its brutality.
Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile during the so-called Afghan Jihad following things did happen;
He told Zia about his experience the previous year when the Israelis had shown him the vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon. The weapons were perfect for the Mujahideen, he told Zia. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled on the proposal, adding, Just don’t put any Stars of David on the boxes {Page 131-132}.
"UNQUOTE"
But, the mind set of accusing Late Zia ul Haq for developing some so called ‘discriminatory” laws, is also not correct and this approach also need to examine.
===============================
People used to pay Zakat to their relatives and whoever they wanted willingly but Zia enforced Zakat Law made people to file affidavit that "they are Shias". The second thing Zia did was to introduce a Fraud in the Name of Islam "Bila Sood Bankari" whereas only the name was changed the "Sood" – "Riba" – Interest" was rampant under the very Rule of Zia.
But, the mind set of accusing Late Zia ul Haq for developing some so called ‘discriminatory” laws, is also not correct and this approach also need to examine.
===========================
Zia’s contribution for Israel and Afghan 'Jihad' with the help of Infidels.????
Quran also says: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and idolaters. and thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo we are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. [The Table Spread Chapter 5 Verse 82 – Soorah Al-Maidah].
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christian for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. {The Table Spread – V (Soora Al-Maida) Verse 51}.
Who is a "Jew" exactly? What if I called myself an Oompah-Loompah instead, how would you recognize me as the kind of Jew written about in the Koran?
Solomon2 says: – May 31, 2010 at 3:39 am – Who is a “Jew” exactly? What if I called myself an Oompah-Loompah instead, how would you recognize me as the kind of Jew written about in the Koran?
=========================
Sir,
It is also written in the Quran about Non-Muslims:
Hating them in our hearts does not mean that we should oppress or mistreat them under any circumstances, because Allaah said to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), describing what his attitude should be towards the People of the Book:
“and I am commanded to do justice among you. Allaah is our Lord and your Lord. For us our deeds and for you your deeds”
[al-Shoora 42:15 – interpretation of the meaning]
even though he is a Muslim and they are following Judaism or Christianity.
Minor Interpretation: The Muslims believe that it is not permissible, under any circumstances whatsoever, for a Muslim to mistreat a non-Muslim who is not hostile towards Islam; so the Muslim should not commit aggression against him, or frighten him, or terrorize him, or steal his wealth, or embezzle him, or deprive him of his rights, or deny him his trust, or deny him his wages, or withhold from him the price of his goods when buying from him or withhold the profits of a partnership if he is in a business partnership with him.
The Muslims believe that it is permissible for a Muslim to treat kindly those non-Muslims who are not hostile, whether by offering financial help, feeding the hungry, giving them loans if needed or interceding with regard to permissible matters, or speaking kindly to them or returning their greetings, and so on. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8]
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:64]
“And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110].
It is obligatory upon the Muslims to honour treaties or agreements made with a non-Muslim party. If a Muslim has agreed to their conditions when seeking permission to enter their country (i.e., a visa) and has promised to adhere to that, then it is not permissible for him to commit mischief in their land, to betray anyone, to steal, to kill or to do any destructive action, and so on. Muslims should differentiate between different kinds of kaafirs in their dealings with them. They should make peace with those who make peace, and wage war against those who wage war, and wage jihad against those who stand in the way of spreading the message of Islam and causing it to prevail of earth.
Muslims are commanded to call non-Muslims to Islam with wisdom and beautiful preaching and by debating in a manner that is better. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:46]
Courtesy: Extracted from the view of "Extremist Wahabis".
You could just say that you feel uncomfortable answering my questions, or that your knowledge of Islam is insufficient to do so. Care to try again, or ask a friend for assistance?
@Solomon: Jews are those that follow the jewish religion. You can call yourself whatever you want but if you follow the jewish religious believes you are a jew. Islam does not define based on ethnicity but based on believes.
There are several verses of the Quran that refer to the jews & some are even directly addressed to them. They are referred to as Bani-Israel. Several of these verses were specific to that time period & related to specific circumstances.
Amir Mughal above has quoted several verses from the Quran that indicate what Islam teaches us about the way we should interact with non-muslims. I think that is what you were asking.
Solomon2 says: – May 31, 2010 at 10:50 pm You could just say that you feel uncomfortable answering my questions, or that your knowledge of Islam is insufficient to do so. Care to try again, or ask a friend for assistance?
Al says: May 31, 2010 at 11:42 pm Amir Mughal above has quoted several verses from the Quran that indicate what Islam teaches us about the way we should interact with non-muslims. I think that is what you were asking.
================
Dear Mr Solomon,
Read Mr A1's reply.
". You can call yourself whatever you want but if you follow the jewish religious believes you are a jew. Islam does not define based on ethnicity but based on believes. There are several verses of the Quran that refer to the jews…"
Can you pull these out and demonstrate, clearly and simply without further reference, what qualities the Koran cites to allow Muslims to recognize those of Jewish belief?
I don't understand why in the world would Islam define the jewish religion for the jews?
Hitler murdered millions – do you think he needed the Quran to tell him who was a jew & who was not?
If you want to make a point you can make it now.
Looks like some people didn't like how people of Pakistan showed their solidarity with Muhammad S.A.W.W and Islam.
This incident had to take place to take Pakistanis back to Islam bashing.
Now Islam-bashers would have a field day, go ahead and enjoy.
Come and have your speaches ready Mr. MB, Mr Gehla, Mr. Nadeem Paracha and all other ghulaam mufakkirs.
Knowing communist kids like Urooj Zia,I 100% agree that People's Resistance movement is being run by communists and athiests of Pakistan and they have no love for Qadyanis,instead of it they found an excuse to defame Pakistan.
@Ibrahim: MB is a gone case, spare him please
sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws
============================
Another Gift of General Zia US CIA Partnership to peaceful Afghanistan: Read as to how USA/CIA arranged Militant Text Books to use Innocent Afghans as a Cannon Fodder against USSR: Back to school in Afghanistan by Heather Abbott & Catherine McIsaac
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/05/back-to-…
I didn't question whether Zia was hated or not. Yet maybe you have given me my answer? Maybe people's hate for Zia has clouded people's minds from considering that Pakistan took a wrong turn years before, and fixing THAT may be the route to workable solutions?
Why do so many people seem to think Pakistan took a wrong turn under Zia? Zia wasn't in power when East Pakistan broke away, nor in 1965 when Pakistani "infiltrators" (the U.S. State Dept.'s term) precipitated an unnecessary war with India.
Dear Mr. Solomon,
Role of Zia in ruining Afghan People and Afghanistan, read and you decide as to why Zia is hated: Ronald Reagan, Afghan Mujahideen, Talibans & Royal Mess. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/03/ronald-r…
Solomon seems to me as another JIDF nutcase
"Solomon seems to me as another JIDF nutcase"
In your opinion, is Pakistan truly an example of sane behavior? If not, isn't a "nutcase" an indication of what might be "normal"?
Solomon
You can twist and turn it all you can… that fact of the matter is you are a direct product of JIDF brainwashing
Culpable role of PML-N in Lahore’s Ahmadi massacre
http://criticalppp.org/lubp/archives/11797
Scene from inside mosque;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe0YsjTdrtg
teeth
to whom you want to show solidarity?
few dead bodies of non Muslims or victims of terrorism that has become our routine practices for last 7 years? .
You call yourself liberal and secular like nature but you highly projected the face book scenario in your blog.
Read my comments again and again I told you that our vultures living in our social, govt and military circles which are groomed on religious conflicts, are desperately looking for such kind of updated issues to achieve their terrorism targets.
There was no sky fallen on our heads if we would have respected court order for few days wihtout any objection.
But people like you are chasing your freedom of expression.
Dont worry we had another black star on our bad repute of killing anti wahabi group or unarmed community.
I am still surprised to whom you people are trying to show solidarity read Constitution of Islamic republic of Pakistan.
Pakistan is the only state to have officially declared the Ahmadis to be non-Muslims; here their freedom of religion has been curtailed by a series of ordinances, acts and constitutional amendments. In 1974 Pakistan's parliament adopted a law declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslims the country's constitution was amended to define a Muslim “as a person who believes in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad”. In 1984 General Zia issued Ordinance XX. The ordinance, which was supposed to prevent "anti-Islamic activities", forbids Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim or to "pose as Muslims". This means that they are not allowed to profess the Islamic creed publicly or call their places of worship mosques. Ahmadis in Pakistan are also barred by law from worshiping in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms, performing the Muslim call to prayer, using the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quoting from the Quran, preaching in public, seeking converts, or producing, publishing, and disseminating their religious materials. These acts are punishable by imprisonment of up to three year.
Here jihadi forces which are called as non uniform soldiers of Pakistan are trained under such strict code of religious norms.
Mughal you said
if you little time left then please read the message number 1 of mine [as per you Theocratic Islam], I have condemned “This Brazen Act of Barbarity and Butchery” through the Hadith of Prophet Mohammad [PBUH]. I damn care if you or anybody else declare the Clear Message above” a Theocratic Islam [There is no Theocracy in Islam]
That is big difference between you and me as I whole heartily accept failures of Islamic teachings that people like you and me too are just recognized as follower of theocratic concept of Islam.
How much rhetoric words you add for your spiritual uplift but reality is just opposite what you try to explain.
Like you JI Ammer and shabaz shareef also condemns such mass murder and just like you they favor the groups who provoke killings of apostates.
In your latest selection of Hadith you highlighted the quoting of killings of apostates, jews and Christians.
This is same mentality of first projecting the hostile attitude or different community by taking help of past history and when its consequences start appearing on our grass root levels, you people start preaching peace through Islamic teachings.
For you kind information such hadiths are part of syllabus Of Islamic republic of Pakistan.These were intentionally included in courses during Gen zia 's era, by removing all kind of secular and strong cordial communal like verses and hadiths.
Even courses of British council include such projected such verses.
So you see first we prepare fuel for fire and then condemn strongly when fire starts destroying our home.
In your latest selection of Hadith you highlighted the quoting of killings of apostates, jews and Christians. [Nazia]
===============================
I posted the Laws and Ethics during a War.
Like you JI Ammer and shabaz shareef also condemns such mass murder and just like you they favor the groups who provoke killings of apostates.
=========================
Don't compare me with those. I am not even closer.
For you kind information such hadiths are part of syllabus Of Islamic republic of Pakistan.These were intentionally included in courses during Gen zia ’s era, by removing all kind of secular and strong cordial communal like verses and hadiths.
=============================
No for your kind information you are wrong in Pakistan Hadiths are taught as per Fiqh suitability [as interpreted by Deobandis and Barelvis] – Even the Madressahs in Pakistan taught Fiq, and Logic and other obsolete faculties as prescribed in Dars-e-Nizami then Hadith. Hadith is only taught for only One Year in 7 year course of Islamic Scholar in Deobandi and Barelvi Madressahs and that's why Islam in Pakistan is confused in technicalities of Fiqh whereas following Hadith makes life/Islam more simple. One example of such Madressahs as under:
"we don't accept Haditha of Abu Huraira and An'as Bin Maalik because they were "Ghair Faqeeh Sahabi" means [as per these Mullahs Abu Huraira and An'as Bin Malik had little knowledge of Islam]"
When Sheikh Abduh [Great Scholar] visited Darul Uloom Deoband before partition he asked Allama Shabbir Ahmed Usmani about Madressah Syllabus to which Allama replied "we teach Hadith for one year and other faculties for 6 years to which Abduh said "what the hell are you people doing, you are committing a grave mistake and you will regret it later. And Abduh was shoved and pushed out of Darul Uloom Deoband. Allama Shabbir Ahmed Usmani after partition regretted that before his death.
For Reference as to how Deobandi and Barelvi Scholars mistreat Hadiths read "Usool-e-Shashi and Fatawa-e-Alamgiri"
The Jamat-e-Ahmadiyyas briefing to the medias about the Ahmedis stance on the Murderous attack on AHmedis "Mosques" during "friday prayers" on "Namazies". Which the Pakistani media didnt show.
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/05/30/for-k…
Official statement from Jamaat Ahmadiyya Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnYFx8awE_A
Yeah Awab,
What about a rally for the targetted killings of Muslims in Karachi? No, you wouldn't rally for that, because BBC and Washington Post wouldn't give you a coverage for that NOR WOULD IT PLEASE YOUR COMMUNIST FRIENDS.
NO I DO NOT ENDORSE THE KILLINGS OF INNOCENT MUSLIMS OR NON-MUSLIMS, BUT WHY IT DOESN'T MATTER TO YOU WHEN INNOCENT MUSLIMS ARE TARGET-KILLED IN KARACHI OR BALUCHISTAN BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY?
@Ibrahim: There is a big difference between the two issues.
The targeted killings in Karachi are being done by criminal & politically connected elements – not by some random ideologically motivated individuals or groups of individuals – THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION.
All murders are condemnable equally. But behind the Karachi killing there is no ideology but just political opportunism. The people who carried out the Lahore attacks were ideologically motivated & they were there to fight to the end, not kill & run away, because they believed they were on the right path. This is definitely more dangerous for our society because ideologically motivated killers are not going to stop at Qadianis. They will target other non-muslims. And then they will start targeting other muslim sects who do not agree with their views. In fact we can already see this happening.
The protests are not so much against the killings as against the ideology that encourages people to take such actions.
A1 is correct to the hilt. I agree with him because who is next nobody knows.
Aone
Sorry I cant agree with you as same forces created false effects of ethnic and sectarian differences in two opposite areas of Pakistan.Urdu speaking community was never considered an aggressive and warrior like nature as we have our puktoons so surely the after effects of breeding wrong concepts of differences showed opposite trends.
In both side negative approach of few locals were projected and then armed as per demand of area via our local agencies.
North side showed more disastrous result as arms gang were genetically warriors as compare to leadership of mqm who made deal of safe exits by giving the names/files of their die hard worker and LEA targeted them as per orders of high authority.
Same sweeping operation is being carried out in our mountains.
Karachi has no border like situation so politically motivated conflicts were developed to weaken the state writ and development in the area.It was not surprise that in 1980s when mqm started showing its anger to govt, we started loosing our credibility in business ventures and UAE begun rising as tycoon of business community.
Now same story was repeated in northern side in the name of Islamisation and this time pukhtton were selected.Same agencies, same reasons of developing hatred among communities living in same area but out put was different as geographical demand varied here.
So we proved to be master of home grown terrorism again and again.
Yes leadership of TTP or non uniform soldiers OF Paksitan reacted differently as compared to mqm runaway leadership and catastrophic resultant is beyond our control now.
Solomon2 says: – June 1, 2010 at 1:08 am Or shall I question if these repeated digressions indicate that jew-hatred is more important to you than your love of Pakistan?
=========================
Where did any of my statement show that I hate Jews. I am very specific when I talk of Jews.
@Nazia: You cannot be more wrong because your entire argument is based on the supposition that all taliban & all militants are necessarily Pakhtoon or belong to the northern areas.
Violence in Karachi is ethnic in nature. It is not ideologically motivated but rather a fight for political & economic power in the city. The fight is not to forcefully impose any religious believes or ideologies on the people. The people carrying out the killings know they are committing a crime & that is why they never carry out any act brazenly & never publicly justify their acts. Both the ANP & MQM condemn the violence but everyone knows who is behind it.
With the Taliban, the situation is different. The Taliban & other militant groups openly admit to carrying out these acts & they justify it using religion. Ideologies are not restricted to particular communities.
While the taliban leadership cadre comes primarily from the Pakhtoon areas, their supporters & many foot soldiers can be found all over the country among Urdu speaking, Sindhis, Punjabis, Seraikis etc.
The violence against Ahmedis is ideologically motivated. Those who commit these terrorist acts believe they are doing a service to Islam.
That is why this ideologically motivated violence is more dangerous for our society as a whole – it has no boundaries & it can impact anyone & everyone.
Secondly, the only reason that people from certain areas of Pakistan are more prone to subscribe to these militant ideologies has more to do with economic & social conditions & less to do with ethnicity.
A1
Violence whether created through ethnic basis or ideologically motivated reasons,always has same kind of impacts in any society or community living there for long time since the eruption of motivated differences .It is used as a tool of manipulation through communal or religious weakness of concerned area seeings law , culture and geographical demand of that particular area.
Religious and political ideologies have been the cause of interpersonal violence throughout history.Such kind of ideologies often falsely accuse others of violence and the common factors in all kind of violent activities was it hit the innocent,influential and sincere people of that area.
This way provide favorable conditions to mafia culture for controlling the politics and economics of sensitive areas.
So there might be different motivation but Pakistan army and its intelligence groups played vital role in creating mafia of mqm and talibans in both sides of Paksitan.
You say
Violence in Karachi is ethnic in nature. It is not ideologically motivated but rather a fight for political & economic power in the city. The fight is not to forcefully impose any religious believes or ideologies on the people.
you are trying to create false screen of different reasons for destroying the peace of our homeland.
Get data of 1990 killings in Karachi.Mosques and devotes were targeted in many incidents.Shias were and still on hit list of Karachi terrorism.What have Karachi done to Qadri group was seen by whole world.Deadly attack on shia procession in front of CCTV cameras is another clear example of state involvement in harassing particular sect of Pakistan.
Ahmediays attack is latest link of same attitude in punjab side.
The creators of such horrific scenes are not aliens but our own people .They created monsters of taliban on the basis of same footsteps as they produced charred mqm diehards.
If this game was limited to get power and economics then why mqm showed deadliest attitude against state and her enemies.Karachi people living to nazimabad,FB area landhi, dongi ground still remember the horror of mqm gangs .
You think state had gone mad by planningone of high profile and abnormal operation against mqm workers.
As I said that here cowardice and greed of mqm leadership played decisve role and operation clean up was done accordingly.
Here pukhtoon brothers were charred through wrong belief of religion as soldiers of Islam.First target was surely wall against red army and then they would have been eliminated like mqm workers,.
but here presence of international super powers and participation of international terrorist groups created more dangerous situation than thoughts of our designers of terrorism .
Actually this time wrongly speculation of military heads for producing gems of terrorism is back fired and now all state's interest are moving around this war on terror.
As you see mqm after this emerged as only mafia that can rule in Karachi, you would see that such kind of talibanic forces would reappear in that area and would control the situation through power of harassment as mqm is doing in Karachi.
It is not funny to see that mqm is in power in Karachi for last 20 years but peace of city is all time in stake and wait for any ethnic and religious motive to trigger violence in few moments.
example.
deadly attack on religious procession had taken disastrous turn toward particular community of Karachi.
We all witnessed it in our screens but state was just showing helpless gestures as victims of violence were ordinary citizens of Pakistan.The state did same thing to poor swatis and now to waizirstan people.
So each time of disturbance same group uses different tactics to demolish the peace of land and locals to control parameters in military way of ruling its own people.
@Nazia: You are making incoherent arguments. Of course any form of violence will have a bad affect on society. But that does not mean that motivation behind the violence in Karachi & FATA is the same.
You are confusing the issues. In Karachi, violent crimes are of two types. Violence directed against Shias, Barelvis etc. is again ideologically motivated & political parties don't have anything to do with it directly. On the other hand, there is violence between MQM, ANP, PPP & other political parties & that is definitely not ideologically motivated.
I agree that the violence affects the society & that it is being carried out by our own people & that agencies have been involved in backing many violent groups.
But your analysis of MQM is overly simplistic. Whatever its many failings, the fact is that MQM is genuinely popular in Karachi.
MQM definitely uses violent means as does ANP & PPP when given the chance & as do the various factions of Muslim League. MQM is at its core an ethnic party even though it is trying to shed that image as is ANP and the same can be said to some extent about PML-N.
And again your assumption that Pakhtuns are responsible for all the suicide bombings is incorrect & simplistic. The people carrying out these bombings are following an ideology. I know urdu & punjabi speaking people in Karachi who subscribe to this ideology. And as per the figures provided by government, about 700 of the 1700 militants arrested are from South Punjab.
I reiterate that ideologically driven violence is more dangerous than politically driven one because you cannot talk sense into someone who is ideologically driven to murder. And since this is a war of ideas & believes, it is also difficult to contain it using just brute force.
Aone
I have already told you that motivation is picked and activated as per demand of the area.
In both sides we saw and seeing same attitude that rebelled Pakistanis stood against state and State used all kind of extreme brutal act against its citizens to handle the situation.Surely Taliban creation has been escalated beyond calculation but here more money, highly trained workforce and modern arms and warrior nature of pukhtoons made the difference and we are facing more catastrophic images around us .
I again stick to my point that all kind of violence generated factors depend how and who trigger such situation in any dormant society.
Mqm was a genuine party in Karachi as sahirf was popular in Lahore or JI and JUI in backward areas of frontiers and PPP in rural areas of Sindh.
We all know that mqm prolonging its tenure in rling groups through all wrong means of harassment and Musharraf era gave him booster to receive back its all terror and horror techniques demolishing all efforts of Nasserullah babar and shoib suddle.That is why we all witnessed the 12 may, 27 dec and deadly attack on shia procession under state protections.You see these three events link with political, religious and communal reasons but resultant was same deadbodies of civilains, financial loss of common citizensand state but no doubt mafias took control the people's mind through worst kind of harassment.
Now compare this to what is happening in Fata and waziristasn area same acts of eradication of enemies but results are more destructive as our army is trying to harass the genetically warrior nation through their modern miltiary training and armor show .
By the way you and mughal are lost twin brothers as both are indulged in superiority complex that others have naive kind of observation on state matters and you are all in all and perfect in judging the situation.
@Nazia: You are needlessly arguing without understanding what i am saying.
Violence will always have the same affect on society whatever the reasons. I AGREE WITH YOU. That does not mean that all forms of violence can be equated with each other. There are different motivations & reasons that lead people towards violence.
What you are saying is that the situation is exactly similar in Karachi & FATA & just because Pakhtoons are 'genetically warrior like' they reacted by forming the taliban and the urdu-speaking are 'cowardly' so they reacted by forming the MQM.
What can i say. I don't know where you come up with such gems. It is so easy for people like Aamir Mughal & myself to fall into a superiority complex talking with you – we don't even need to try.
You need to understand first what an ideologically motivated war is? A person fighting for an ideology is not fighting to win small battles and victories. He is fighting to implement an ideology. This war is bigger than any individual unlike political & economic battles that are fought for more selfish reasons. That is why you are never going to find an MQM worker who is ready to blow himself up for his cause but you will find a long line of militants who would be ready to. And this has nothing to do with ethnicity. All the suicide bombers who blow themselves up are not Pakhtoon. This is a really flimsy argument & a completely racist one.
Many violent political movements have been contained by co-opting them into the power structures. The Palestinian Authority started of as a militant organization but it was co-opted into power & it shed its violent past. Similarly MQM has tried to shed its more violent past because it has been co-opted into the power system in the country.
This is the same thing that the Americans are trying to do with the Taliban. But the problem they are facing is that a significant segment of the taliban are not in the fight for power & money. Those that were have already deserted towards the US. The rest are in it for ideological reasons & that means they are never going to compromise with the United States & agree to any power sharing arrangement that leaves the US influence in the region intact.
The difficulty with winning this war is that you can kill a person with weapons but you cannot kill an ideology using those weapons. This is a battle of ideas. It will live on & it will influence a new generation of people to carry on the fight. Plus it transcends race, language, & ethnicity. That is why this is much more dangerous.
But i am sure you would have understood none of what i have said and will continue with your nonsensical arguments instead of giving a logical response.
Al says: – June 5, 2010 at 12:00 am @Nazia: You are needlessly arguing without understanding what i am saying. What you are saying is that the situation is exactly similar in Karachi & FATA & just because Pakhtoons are ‘genetically warrior like’ they reacted by forming the taliban and the urdu-speaking are ‘cowardly’ so they reacted by forming the MQM.
========================
Dear Ms. Nazia,
This Martial Race Phenomena has long been rejected by War Strategists and Political Theorists. For example 6 Feet Tall Nordic-Aryan-Caucasians were chased in Vietnam by the people who were far docile in physical outlook, 2nd example is Bangladesh [mind you every Movement (Religious/Political) was first started in Bengal before partition i.e. Faraizi Movement, Titu Mir and numerous others and UP/CP, Delhi, Punjab didn't even know about Movements] Furthermore, don't forget that Ranjeet Singh's regime Ruled over Pashtuns.
Note: The Text above is not meant to offend Pashtun or Urdu Speaking communities [majority of both is hard working, decent and peace loving]
Aamir Mughal says: – June 5, 2010 at 12:59 pm – Al says: – June 5, 2010 at 12:00 am @Nazia: You are needlessly arguing without understanding what i am saying. What you are saying is that the situation is exactly similar in Karachi & FATA & just because Pakhtoons are ‘genetically warrior like’ they reacted by forming the taliban and the urdu-speaking are ‘cowardly’ so they reacted by forming the MQM.
=========================
Any Community can rise when pushed to walls e.g. Memluk's of Syria, minute army under the command of Saifuddin Qutz routed the Juggernaut of Mongol Army in the battle of Ainal Jalut and after that battle Mongols ran helter skelter and couldn't retain many area they conquered.
AOne and mughal
You are really gems of our agencies and llok hired on the basis of theoretical knowledge and shrewd nature.
You might received high profile refresher courses of reasons of violence productions and countering intelligence techniques to handle it.
But your denial of pointing the exact reasons and groups for producing regular kind of violence and terrorism through different motives, itself shows your inclination to cover up the root cause.
For your kind information coward altaf hussain and mullah fazal ullah and other ttp commondoes brigade cant even placed near to nelson Mandela, luther king,suy kui, khomeni gandhi or other leaders who have led different, religious political and ideological movement for suppressed and oppressed class .
Nor in their movement we had hardly seen the spread of violence in the form of suicidal bombers, bullet riddled and drilled dead bodies, hanging dead bodies on trees , chopping heads and body parts in front of public etc.
The runaway leadership of mqma and TTP are master mind products of edcuated and crook ruling class and altaf hussan and mullahs like leadership are paid touts of these minds.Through these so called leaders such hidden minds are actually controlling the state matters creating violence on different basis.
Stop giving me theoretical lectures as I was and I am all time victim of both kind of political or so called ideologically motivated war in our north and south side of Paksitan.Both time watched same kind of inhumane acts, degradation of country economy, loss of productivity and harmony in our society.
Nazia says: June 7, 2010 at 12:12 pm AOne and mughal
You are really gems of our agencies and llok hired on the basis of theoretical knowledge and shrewd nature.
MAM: My past/profile is public but how did you know about Aone:)????
NAZIA: You might received high profile refresher courses of reasons of violence productions and countering intelligence techniques to handle it.
MAM: That is not called Intelligence Course/Refresher Course ,that is called a Decent Reply supported with Reference and you can do that well provided "you should avoid using Vitamin "I".
NAZIA: itself shows your inclination to cover up the root cause.
MAM: I didn't cover up any thing and that is evident through many of my posts above and on different threads.
Nazia: For your kind information coward altaf hussain and mullah fazal ullah and other ttp commondoes brigade cant even placed near to nelson Mandela, luther king,suy kui, khomeni gandhi or other leaders.
MAM: That's not for you to decide because this Right is with Voters. By the way do you want to know about Khomeini then read his Work above all his stay is Paris and Turkey [for alleged Islamic Revolution is beyond comprehension].
NAZIA: Nor in their movement we had hardly seen the spread of violence in the form of suicidal bombers, bullet riddled and drilled dead bodies, hanging dead bodies on trees , chopping heads and body parts in front of public etc.
MAM: Wrong about Iran. Irani Mullah have retained SAVAK [of Reza Shah] to use it against opponents of the so-called Islamic Revolution.
NAZIA: Through these so called leaders such hidden minds are actually controlling the state matters creating violence on different basis.
MAM: Agree but prove it!
NAZIA: Stop giving me theoretical lectures as I was and I am all time victim of both kind of political or so called ideologically motivated war in our north and south side of Paksitan.
MAM: That is not called lecture i.e. called debate.
@Nazia: Believe me you don't need high profile courses from intelligence agencies to understand the reasons for violence. You just need common sense.
Why in the world do you find the need to tell me that Altaf Hussain & Mullah Fazlullah do not compare to Nelson Mandella or Suu Kyi? Where did i say that they were great leaders or comparable to these personalities?
What i am trying is to make you realize (though i must admit it is a waste of time) that violence has various reasons – economic, political, ideological – and unless we understand the root cause of the violence we are no closer to resolving the issues that lead to it.
I am not the one who is covering up the root causes of violence. You are doing that by lumping together Altaf Hussain with Maulana Fazlulla & the Taliban without trying to understand what the root causes of violence are in each case.
You seem to think that the intelligence agencies are gods who can control & manipulate whoever & whatever they want. If only it was so easy we wouldn't be faced with the situation we are faced with today. In real life it is not that simple. Intelligence agencies can exploit issues to encourage violence but there are always underlying grievances. MQM was formed to address the grievances of the urdu-speaking population. The taliban movement has developed as a reaction to the American occupation of Afghanistan & Pakistan's assistance to the US.
Again i am not arguing against the negative affects that the violence has on society & economy. And no where did i justify the violence.
I don't understand how you arrive at the conclusions you arrive at & then start arguing without any understanding of what is being argued by the other side.
Al says: June 7, 2010 at 6:00 pm The taliban movement has developed as a reaction to the American occupation of Afghanistan & Pakistan’s assistance to the US.
=======================
Dear Sir,
A minor correction in the above text: Taliban was invented to finish the Civil War [1989 – 1996] amongst Warring Factions of "Islamic Afghan Mujahideen" who started killing each others [Muslims on both sides] after the USSR left.
@Mughal: Yes i agree. I was referring to what we call the TTP or the pakistani taliban although they also have their roots in the 80's 'jihad'.
Aone
Commentators try to provide "thought provoking ideas "in any kind of discussion but you as per your nature you are expert in "reply provoking techniques"
Yours comments like that defy reality .
MQM was formed to address the grievances of the urdu-speaking population.
Mqm still claim all this under the leadership of Altaf hussain who is running the state affairs while living in UK for last 18 years.Funny thing in whole situation is his party is in govt for last 15 years.
Your runway visionary champz is developing new kind of political science in Karachi,First he allowed and forgot genocide of his workers whom he gathered against state in the name of grievances and then left his political domain by dealing with establishment and now leading this party for what? still unknown.
This party is with powerful establishment of Pakistan for last 18 years and still crying like problem child or spoiled son inlaw all the time.
If I am not wrong high calibre altaf hussain raised the voices for poor biharis to but as his party is ruling Karachi and sharing state responsibilities for last 18 years, these biharis are still living in shanty camps of Bangaldesh and waiting their runaway messiah would gain some courage to come out from UK and secure them.
They are ignoring the fact that their leadership has opted safe and sound migration instead of risking his only life on the lost grievances of biharis and Urdu speaking.
Oh my God salute to mqm lovers , how badly and stubbornly they justify the coward nature of their leadership and justification of his settlement in UK.
Can you think Altah hussain like bright flying star of Karachi a symbol of bravery can be picked by the agencies to lead the movement of TTPs in mountains.
Same on opposite side , do you think Fazal ullah could have received any kind of public attraction in karachi like area.
So agencies picked the fake leaders from the soil of eroded areas.
Whole Pakistan is now become showing the land of erosion of human values as this state has no more capacity of acting like welfare state under brutal military rule, feudalistic minds and corrupt bureaucracy.
Do you think that grievances of Urdu speaking was more than sindhis/ haris whom generations are living like slaves of land lords.
What poor bolchis are facing from govt and sardar culture since many generation is less pathetic what urdu speaking felt under the high profile leadership of Altaf hussain.
A leader of dead bodies of Karachi people.
If leaders rise and groom for right cause , they never leave their land like suukuyi or mandella as whole movement moves around them and their way of resistance against atrocities.It actually acts liek force of motivation for oppressed community.
In my country accept the truth that such kind of grievances surrounded in whole country are projected under fake leadership and sponsored by agencies to counter some kind of local and foreign forces.
Noway our agencies can be god of state but they are manipulators of very wrong and deadly political and religious games .Creation of mqm and TTPs are its exemplary goals.I have already told you both groups tried to bully the locals through harassment and violence generated ideas.
Mqm men filled dongi ground with drilled bodies of local and govt people who tried to create hurdle for them under state eradication programs.
Same attitude TTP showed in Lash chowk of swat.
Both mostly targeted junior staff of LEAs.were the victims Indian, jews or non muslims?
Pakistan army has gained repute of operation clean up of her own insurgency many times. first biharis in bangledesh, then mqm in Karachi and now TTPs in north.
Result is biharis recuperated after getting blow from Pakistani rulers and ruling in their land without any interference from India. mqm is running state matters for last 18 years and same would be seen in case of TTP when US army will windup her operation for another destiny.
Generals, political people get their share in this deadly mess and worst kind of violence has become our identification as disgraced nation.
Whatever you name and find reasons behind violence but all such kind of movement and leadership are sponsored by ruling fanatics using state funding.
Mughal
you are curious
My past/profile is public but how did you know about Aone:)????
This is called common sense which Aone thinks that I badly lack in this kind of talent.So sad that no one acknowledge my god gifted skills.
Actually net world has its own kind of understandings and perceptions through using of words and its timings.As you clearly behave like belonging of intelligence agencies because in the time of chaos you mostly bring more instigating ideas and articles for further complicating the situation.
This is same behavior I observe in govt or ISI considered websites. They all time try to trigger the situation toward more state of confusions and haphazardness without calculating its consequences.
Thanks our majority of population is ignorant and mostly rely on 15 rs newspapers and this net tool is not very effective in agencies circle as in this field they usually counter some realistic and logical civillians .
Please dont ask me to provide proof as you know I rely on my vitman I very much against your nature which is fully dependent of vitamin C&P.
@Nazia: It is really amusing how you get so worked up by imagining things i am saying (which i am not) & then basing your entire argument on that imagination.
So you don't agree that MQM was formed to address the grievances of the urdu-speaking population? If you don't than you obviously don't know anything about the history of Karachi politics & who were the first ones to introduce weapons here.
No where did i say that the suffering of the urdu-speaking population is greater than than that of oppressed Sindhis or Balochis. In fact, in my opinion the urdu-speaking & punjabi-speaking people have historically had a disproportionate share in running the country's affairs (BTW i am urdu-speaking myself).
The only difference was that the urdu-speaking population was generally more educated & it had a fair bit of representation in the bureaucracy & in business circles – that is why it was able to raise its voice much more effectively than for example the Balochis have been able to.
A good example is the recent hype that MQM was able to generate in the media on its Punjab Convention. Jamaat Islami would probably be able to gather much larger crowds but it would never be able to get the type of media coverage that MQM managed to get.
Altaf Hussain is not my visionary champ. I don't have a problem if you think that Altaf Hussain is a coward – he probably is. I am not an MQM lover & haven't voted for them in the two elections i have been eligible to vote in.
But I think you need to look beyond your in-built prejudices. Whether one likes it or not the MQM does have support in the urdu-speaking population of Karachi. PPP is not liked too much either by middle-class urban punjabis (generally speaking) but that doesn't mean it doesnt have the support of the poor people of that province. Does MQM use violence? Yes it does. Is the PPP leadership corrupt? Yes it is. But that does not mean we can dismiss them with simplistic assumptions that they force people to vote for them.
Your statement "If leaders rise and groom for right cause , they never leave their land….." is absolutely incorrect because you assume that since Altaf Hussain fled the country the cause he was espousing was not legitimate. What about Baithullah Mehsud then? He didn't run away so does it legitimize what he was doing?
Corruption of the leaders has NOTHING to do with the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the cause. Yasser Arrafat & Mahmood Abbas are pretty good examples of how leaders sell out the cause they are fighting for for personal benefits.
Now you need to understand what the issue we are debating over here is instead of going on your diatribes against MQM by imagining that i am their supporter & worship Altaf Hussain.
@Nazia: So sorry to disappoint you but i have no relation whatsoever to any intelligence agency or any government department. I work in a Bank.
Nazia says: – June 8, 2010 at 10:33 am
====================
Nazia: As you clearly behave like belonging of intelligence agencies because in the time of chaos you mostly bring more instigating ideas and articles for further complicating the situation.
MAM: Wrong, I just raise honest question. Truth must prevail.
NAZIA: This is same behavior I observe in govt or ISI considered websites.
MAM: Do you have any proof that my blog is Government Backed or even worse ISI or IB Backed.
NAZIA: They all time try to trigger the situation toward more state of confusions and haphazardness without calculating its consequences.
MAM: Prove that statement in my case.
NAZIA: Please dont ask me to provide proof as you know I rely on my vitman I very much against your nature which is fully dependent of vitamin C&P.
MAM: Then all you say is your opinion nothing more.
Aone
I put my category in street people.
You wont believe on my social observation that zardari and altaf like people or you say political champz of Pakistan have unique features in their personalities that you hardly find even a single character on our streets who can be said admirer of them.
Karachi is filled with Urdu speaking but majority show loathe for him but no doubt afraid of showing their hatred on public level.
On the other hand zardari like people are publicly cursed or even abused through typical traditional and cultural abusive word power.
In last days I trekked in the deep valley near kohla and even here I found same attitude of people where bhutto lovers still exist but no passion for zardari and its controlling PPP.
So please kindly don't give me lectures of mqm popularity in Punjab.
Typical punjabis and pukhtoons no way would give place to any party whose leader even never entered in his constituency for last 18 years even his party is ruling there.For you he is probable a coward but for all others he is surely recognized coward and under control of strong military establishment and they are its real sponsors in this Punjab event recently showing some actions.
As I am saying that in street culture I hardly found his admirer but in web world link with Pakistan, that observation is reverted and here looks that fans of altaf baji are pouring from all sides.So you see these paper lions are projected through electronic medias and dummy coverage through telephonic speeches.
So its good you compare mehsud and altaf only on this net discussion.The day you put this comparison on any real ground I am sure people would laugh on you or if encounter with follower of mehsud, you might run for saving your life.
An advice for your personal safety.
JI has lost its voters in urban areas but it has strongly developed concentrated pockets in rural and under developed areas and that is why attack on Ahmedi group like successfully done in peace loving city of Pakistan.
Yasir arfat and abbas are leaders of lost nation who even are not recognized in any international forum for accepting human aides and recent activity in Gaza trip is clear example of its negligible status in developed countries.Nobody bother about nations who have weak and corrupt leadership.
So have some courage and accept that you are strong admirer of mqm and its runaway leadership.I assure you that I would give you full dose of evoking and poking remarks to keep you always in energized state .This way you can raise your valor ship like your ideals who do through lengthy telephonic speeches.
Nazia says: – June 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm Aone I put my category in street people. You wont believe on my social observation that zardari and altaf like people or you say political champz of Pakistan have unique features in their personalities that you hardly find even a single character on our streets who can be said admirer of them.
=========================
Then why they vote for MQM AND PPP. The criteria you set is not the criteria.
@Nazia: I can think of two reasons for the replies you give. Either you do not understand English properly or you are just stupid. My guess would be both.
I cannot write in punjabi so there is no other way to tell you that i don't support Zardari or Altaf Hussain. You can stop imagining now. I voted for Imran Khan in 2002. Before that i wasn't old enough to vote. Even though he is naive & stupid when it comes to politics but i think he is at least honest & sincere. I didn't vote for him because he was a punjabi or a pathan but because i think he is honest. So i apologize for killing your fantasies of me supporting Altaf Hussain.
And me liking or not liking Zardari & Altaf Hussain doesn't have anything do with their popularity.
Yeah Zardari & Altaf Hussain may be hated personalities – but that is mostly true of the middle classes. And the middle classes are the ones that dominate the print & electronic media & determine what is projected & what is discussed. The poor don't care because whether it is Zardari sitting on top or some military general, their lives don't change. They vote for the person who has influence at the local level & can help them out in their day to day affairs.
Here are some facts for you (all these figures can be verified from the election commission website):
1.Approx. 18 millions votes were cast in the 2008 elections for the National Assembly.
2.Zardari-led PPP received more than 6 million votes
3.MQM polled 2.4 million votes
All the parties involved agreed that the elections were generally fair & there was no massive rigging.
But even if you assume that 25% of the votes cast for MQM & PPP were fraudulent, forged, or by people who were forced to vote, that still leaves PPP with 4.5 million votes which is still greater than what Nawaz Sharif's PML got. And MQM is still left with 1.8 million votes which is about 6 times what the ANP actually polled.
You are just letting your hatred cloud & color your judgment. The parties may be involved in rigging but no sensible person is going to believe that the MQM is forcing millions of people to vote for it & in a city like Karachi, not some backward or remote area of the country. And no one is going to believe that PPP forged millions of votes to come into government. Both of these parties are there in the National Assembly because people put them there. Whether they are corrupt or not is a different issue.
Regarding the Punjab convention i was not singing praises of MQM but actually saying that they managed to create so much hype out of nothing. I am not naive. I know they don't have much chance in Punjab or the Frontier. Go & read what i wrote again & stop imagining.
Regarding running away it does not have anything to do being an urdu-speaking or a punjabi or a pathan but i know you cannot get out of your in-built prejudices & racist mindset. 'sher-e-punjab' also ran away & than even lied about it for 8 years to the public. That doesn't mean that i can assume that all punjabis are cowards.
You are wrong about Yasser Arafat & Mahmood Abbas. Arafat all but sold out the Palestinian cause in return for international recognition & aid. He was wined & dined by the Western countries & recognized as a legitimate leader of the Palestinians who they could negotiate with. The same is the case with Mahmood Abbas even though he does not have the same popularity that Arafat did. On the contrary, Hamas which won a legitimate election in Gaza is not recognized by the Israelis & Americans as a negotiating partner.
The fate of the Palestinians is not just because of their leadership. There are countless General Assembly resolutions that prove that the majority of countries oppose Israel's policies & support Palestinian rights. It is only because of American support that Israel is able to get away with what it gets away with. If not for America, Israel would be the most isolated country in the world today – America supports them not because of their leadership but because of its foreign policy compulsions.
The vote figures i quoted above are those of winning candidates not the total votes cast.
Al says: – June 9, 2010 at 10:43 pm The vote figures i quoted above are those of winning candidates not the total votes cast.
========================
Here are the relevant links:
Election Statistics of Pakistan [from 1970 to 2002] http://www.elections.com.pk/contents.php?i=7#top
National Assembly Party Position Including Reserved Seats
http://www.ecp.gov.pk/NAPosition.pdf
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/p/pakistan…
@Nazia: Don't worry. I am in a good mood. What do you mean now i have to give a 'welcoming speech' to you?
Please re-read your previous few posts. You were implying that there is no difference between Karachi & FATA & just because urdu-speaking people are not brave they formed the MQM and the Pakhtuns are as per you 'genetically warrior like' they formed the taliban. Than you stated that Punjabis will never support cowards, as if all the other races support cowards because of their nature.
Please get over your preconceived notions & misplaced pride in your own ethnicity. And stop stereotyping. The world is a very big place with all types of people & this is the beauty of it. There are good & bad, brave & cowardly, honest & corrupt among all nations & ethnicities of the world.
Zardari is cashing in on Bhutto's name. I know that. But people still voted for him & no matter how hard you wish he is not going to go anywhere.
That is just your opinion on Nawaz Sharif's popularity. If the majority of people have become supporters of Sharif than why didn't he get more votes in the last election? An election that he himself admits was free and fair.
Barring a few allegations of rigging here & there, Nawaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Altaf Hussain, Asfandyar Wali, JUI – all agree that the elections were generally fair.
Now if because of your in-built bias you still want to dismiss the election results & live in your fantasy world where no one supports Zardari & Altaf Hussain, the majority support Nawaz Sharif & yet Zardari is still in government, please do. I think only a psychiatrist would be able to help you.
PML-N, ANP, MQM are no angels either. Sadly, this is the bunch of opportunistic politicians that we have in Pakistan.
The urban-middle class of Punjab generally reviles both Zardari & Altaf Hussain so you are not much different. What you echo are sentiments of that class not of all Pakistani's. I don't like Zardari & Altaf Hussain either. I know they are corrupt. But the people elected them & i cannot do anything about it. Denying it will not help.
I don't like Nawaz Sharif either. But i admit he is very popular in Punjab. I don't let my personal opinions cloud my judgment & the facts.
If elections are held at regular intervals people will realize sooner or later their mistakes & not vote for corrupt politicians.
I am not favoring MQM. They do engage in election rigging as do all the other parties. However, i am not ready to believe as would any sensible person that millions & millions of votes are fraudulent. Rigging on this massive scale is not possible without raising serious doubts on the election results & in front of the entire media and election monitors.
I suppose you think that Nawaz Sharif doodh me naha kar aya he & was never involved in election rigging?
As far as target killings are concerned i am not denying MQM's role. I am not defending the violence or justifying it in anyway. I think they should be bought to justice for these crimes. No question about it. And the responsibility lies with the federal & provincial governments.
But at the same time unlike what you seem to think i don't think that political activists belonging to ANP & other parties are angels. We have to finish this culture of violence in politics from the country. It is not specific to any party & a concerted effort is needed.
@Solomon: Most Probably the spell by "Elders of Zion" is not letting your computer to visit an "Islamist" site?
BTW what do you say about recent "peace" activities by Israelities in Flotila ?
"Most Probably the spell by “Elders of Zion” is not letting your computer to visit an “Islamist” site?"
("Elders of Zion" is a forgery; it only has meaning as the holy book of anti-semites, not Jews.) No. At first it was a multitude of pop-ups, now it's formatted all weird and difficult to read.
"what do you say about recent “peace” activities by Israelities in Flotila ?"
Are digressions into Israel-hatred really helping you and your country solve its problems?
Solomon2 says: May 31, 2010 at 10:59 pm “Most Probably the spell by “Elders of Zion” is not letting your computer to visit an “Islamist” site?” (“Elders of Zion” is a forgery;
===============================
What about The Deir Yassin massacre by Nobel Peace Prize Winner Menachem Begin? Was that Forgery??
"What about The Deir Yassin massacre -"
How shall I reply? Shall I praise your curiosity and give you a complete reply? Do I point out that no matter what happened in DY fifty years ago it is a pale shadow compared to what the P.A. did in 1971? Or shall I question if these repeated digressions indicate that jew-hatred is more important to you than your love of Pakistan?
I suspect the last is the true case. Not just for you, but for many of your countrymen. And once someone has reached that point, it's easy to start throwing "Jew" labels on people and take up arms against the state.
Solomon2 says:June 1, 2010 at 1:08 am Or shall I question if these repeated digressions indicate that jew-hatred is more important to you than your love of Pakistan? [solomon]
==================
Sir,
Long ago I had read Mr. Khurram Ali Shafique compilation on Israel: Jinnah, General Zia and Israel http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/jinnah-g…
My take on current massacre on Adil Najam's website:
tsk tsk. I have gone thru comments people have made so far and infact it saddened and perplexed me what are they trying to say.
I read a “masterpiece” of a “self-acclaimed” scholar named Deva who put a dot that qadyanis are Muslims.
It’s so unfortunate that media and pseudo enlightened people over here are more busy to use this massacre opportunity to “advertise” Qadyanis as “Muslims” that’s why I have been reading/watching in media(print,Internet and digital) where people are more busy to discuss that why a “Masjid” was called an “Ibadatgah” or why Qadyanis can’t be called “Shaheed”..or Blasphemy Laws should be repealed etc etc.
This is Sick! totally sick! I mean! were you guys waiting for such incident so that you can cash to promote your agenda and start a useless propaganda? If that’s the case then it’s an “inside job” to kill few Qadyanis so that one could put that case forward to “legitimize” the sick attempt of a self acclaimed “Prophet” whose all prophecies went false.
I am surprised to see that at one side people curse Mullahs to give fatwa while they themselves busy to declare who is a Muslim and who is not! Definitely only Allah knows the best but when discussions carried on,people talk on basis of principles. Today I can’t claim a Christian as a “Kaafir” because who knows he would have embraced Islam and hiding it due to various reasons? Former Yusuf Yuhanna and today’s Muhammad Yusuf is the classical case when he kept his new faith hidden for few years. So true, i can’t comment who is a Muslim but atleast I have right to discuss whether Christianity could be consider Islam or whether Qadyanism should be considered Islam? I can’t declare a Qadyani non-Muslims but I can clearly declare Qadyanism, the teachings brought by Mirza Qadyani 2 centuries back,a non-Muslim teachings and I don’t need to go in details, there are two of many things which technically keep them out of boundary of Islam.
1- Islam says that Muhammad(saw) is the last Prophet and no prophet will come after Him. Whoever(be it Qadyani or a Muslim) believes that more Prophets will come then he is out of Islam. Qadyanism believes in that Mirza godforbid is a prophet who brought teachings similar to Muhammad. Those who are whining and debate against it should read the Qadyani literature first.
2- Islam says that Jesus(AS) is alive and lifted upwards and will come back in later times. Qadyanism that Jesus(AS) is buried in Srinagar while in reality Jesus(AS) would burry in Madina at same place where Prophet Muhammad(saw) along with his two companions are buried.
So technically Qadyaniat is not Islam no matter how much you guys cry, no matter how much you guys curse Mullahs. Go and read Islam, go and brush up your knowledge about Qadyani belief. 3 years back on same site I argued with links of Qadyani belief that how are they different from Islam.
So kindly don’t put your wick3d efforts to prove something which us unprovable and kindly concentrate on the matter itsself. Whether the current incident was brutal? Offcourse and there is no second thought about that. Whoever did it MUST be punished but don’t use this incident to “cash” your agenda.
My 2 cents
tinyurl.com/qadyanimassacare
aoa, jo friday ko lahore me ahmediyu k sath howa hai ….wo bohot zulm tha…allah is ka jawab de ga …..or ahmediyu ka muqaf b awam ko pata hona chayee…
it is responsiablity to all TV channals to convay their responce to people
Solomon2 says: May 31, 2010 at 3:39 am Who is a “Jew” exactly?
=================
Here is a Clue: History of Israel.
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/01/history-…
Mr. Solomon,
For your perusal: Gaza Flotilla Massacre: At Least 19 Peace Workers Massacred By The Israelis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09iUIncRylI&fe…
More on the “flotilla” here: http://www.michaeltotten.com/. (Totten is a travel writer whose specialty is Lebanon and Iraq.)
I guess the question is if you Pakistanis have the strength, individually and collectively, to publicly condemn the violence of the Palestinian Arab leadership which crafted the incident, or if you just want to add to the incitement of race-hatred.
My guess is the latter. Is it any wonder, then, that so many Ahmedi Muslims came to a horrible end at the hands of their fellow Pakistanis?
Uh-uh. The question was who is a Jew in the context of the Koran.
@Solomon: Yours is a typical response to any criticism of Israel. Any criticism of the State of Israel somehow ALWAYS becomes anti-antisemiticism & racial hatred. I am sorry but just because the Europeans were brutal with your people, you cannot justify all the crimes & state terrorism that the State of Israel has been carrying out for so long.
It is funny you have to quote a travel writer to make a point & that to one who makes the most stupid & absurd justifications.
You are right – what barbarians on the flotilla carrying clubs & knives. Never mind Israel was forcibly boarding their vehicle in international waters but you are right these people had really dangerous weapons (my God clubs!!!!!! and Knives!!!!!!!!! what has the world come to!). You are right what else could the poor Israeli commandos do but open fire when faced with such deadly weapons & such barbaric people.
I don't know if you want us to laugh or cry?
Here are the facts known so far as per Jonathon Cook, a journalist based in Nazareth, Israel:
Quote:
"It is quite astounding that Israel has been able to create over the past 12 hours a news blackout, just as it did with its attack on Gaza 18 months ago, into which our main media organisations have willingly allowed Israeli spokespeople to step in unchallenged.
How many civilians were killed in Israel’s dawn attack on the Gaza-bound flotilla of aid? We still don’t know. How many wounded? Your guess is as good as mine. Were the aid activists armed with guns? Yes, says Israel. Were they in cahoots with al-Qaeda and Hamas? Certainly, says Israel. Did the soldiers act reasonably? Of course, they faced a lynch, says Israel.
If we needed any evidence of the degree to which Western TV journalists are simply stenographers to power, the BBC, CNN and others are amply proving it. Mark Regev, Israel’s propagandist-in-chief, has the airwaves largely to himself.
The passengers on the ships, meanwhile, have been kidnapped by Israel and are unable to provide an alternative version of events. We can guess they will remain in enforced silence until Israel is sure it has set the news agenda.
So before we get swamped by Israeli hasbara let’s reiterate a few simple facts:
* Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law, and, in killing civilians, committed a war crime. The counter-claim by Israeli commanders that their soldiers responded to an imminent “lynch” by civilians should be dismissed with the loud contempt it deserves.
* The Israeli government approved the boarding of these aid ships by an elite unit of commandoes. They were armed with automatic weapons to pacify the civilians onboard, but not with crowd dispersal equipment in case of resistance. Whatever the circumstances of the confrontation, Israel must be held responsible for sending in soldiers and recklessly endangering the lives of all the civilians onboard, including a baby and a Holocaust survivor.
* Israel has no right to control Gaza’s sea as its own territorial waters and to stop aid convoys arriving that way. In doing so, it proves that it is still in belligerent occupation of the enclave and its 1.5 million inhabitants. And if it is occupying Gaza, then under international law Israel is responsible for the welfare of the Strip’s inhabitants. Given that the blockade has put Palestinians there on a starvation diet for the past four years, Israel should long ago have been in the dock for committing a crime against humanity.
Today Israel chose to direct its deadly assault not only at Palestinians under occupation but at the international community itself.
Will our leaders finally be moved to act?"
Unquote
What happened in Lahore is truly one of the saddest and heart-wrenching incidents I have ever experienced as a Pakistani. When places of worship no longer carry the sanctity they deserve, the stark divide in religious ideology is made clear in Pakistan. After wandering around various blogs and reading horrible hate posts by people who label themselves as Muslims, I felt compelled to write to the terrorists and their followers directly. It is mesmerizing that there are people in my country who actually applaud the heinous crime of killing innocent people, carrying out a crime against Islam, a crime against Pakistan. I am shocked at the people who have the audacity to support those who kill in the name of our religion, one that bounds my faith for the timeless virtues of tolerance, compassion, and forgiveness.
http://bit.ly/avZfHU (http://ahraza.wordpress.com)
verse 137 if you dont include Bismilah as the 1st verse. if done so, then it is verse 138. i hope it is clarified.
Rape is both a moral & a physical crime.
No it isn't Clarified read next verses to complete the context.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً
(4:137)
بَشِّرِ الْمُنَافِقِينَ بِأَنَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا (4:138)
الَّذِينَ يَتَّخِذُونَ الْكَافِرِينَ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَيَبْتَغُونَ عِندَهُمُ الْعِزَّةَ فَإِنَّ العِزَّةَ لِلّهِ جَمِيعًا (4:139)
وَقَدْ نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الْكِتَابِ أَنْ إِذَا سَمِعْتُمْ آيَاتِ اللّهِ يُكَفَرُ بِهَا وَيُسْتَهْزَأُ بِهَا فَلاَ تَقْعُدُواْ مَعَهُمْ حَتَّى يَخُوضُواْ فِي حَدِيثٍ غَيْرِهِ إِنَّكُمْ إِذًا مِّثْلُهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ جَامِعُ الْمُنَافِقِينَ وَالْكَافِرِينَ فِي جَهَنَّمَ جَمِيعًا (4:140)
Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way. Bear unto the hypocrites the tidings that for them there is a painful doom; Those who chose disbelievers for their friends instead of believers! Do they look for power at their hands? Lo! all power appertaineth to Allah. He hath already revealed unto you in the Scripture that, when ye hear the revelations of Allah rejected and derided, (ye) sit not with them (who disbelieve and mock) until they engage in some other conversation. Lo! in that case (if ye stayed) ye would be like unto them. Lo! Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers, all together, into hell; [AN-NISA (WOMEN) Chapter 4 – Verse 137, 138, 139, 140]
Background of "Bismilah"
Dear Mr Talha,
Correct yourself.
Bismilah is the First Verse of the First Chapter of Quran i.e. AL-FATIHA (THE OPENING) not the every Chapter of Quran [Pickup any Copy of Quran and check it out yourself. Muslims have been ordered that when they satrt reciting any chapter of Quran then they should seek Refuge of Allah from Satan and then recite Bismillah. Bismillah is to be recited whenever when one start reciting Quran except only one Soorat Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION) Chapter 9 and even then when someone is opening Quran and want to recite Chapter 9 directly then he/she would have to recite Bismilah. [For Further Details Read Tafisr Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami's al-Fataawa al-Fiqhiyyah, al-Adaab al-Shar’iyyah by Ibn Muflih]
Background of “Bismilah”
Here is the proof: Saudi Ministry for Religious Affairs: Text and read the Verse number of the First Chapter of Quran: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp…
Here is the background in English for [1] In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. [Chapter Number 1 of Quran: http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/dispTargam.asp?…
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
======================
Even Ifti admits it!
ISLAMABAD: Heading a 17-member larger bench of the Supreme Court on Tuesday, Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry termed as criminal negligence the deletion of a word about the rights of minorities from the Objectives Resolution during the regime of General Ziaul Haq in 1985. Ziaul Haq had omitted the word “freely” from the Objectives Resolution, which was made substantive part of the 1973 Constitution under the Revival of Constitutional Order No. 14. The clause of Objectives Resolution before deletion of the word ‘freely’ read, “Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to ‘freely’ profess and practice their religions and develop their culture.” CJP raps change in Objectives Resolution * Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry says deletion of clause on rights of minorities was ‘criminal negligence’ * Appreciates incumbent parliament for taking notice of removal of clause by Gen Zia’s govt in 1985
By Masood Rehman Wednesday, June 09, 2010 http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201…
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
=================================
Even Ifti admits it in the The News!
ISLAMABAD: Chief Justice of Pakistan (CJP) Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry remarked that it was a criminal negligence to bring changes in the documents like Objectives Resolution as former president General (retd) Zia ul Haq tampered with the Constitution in 1985 however, the sitting parliament had done a good job by undoing this tampering. At one point Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry observed that the word ‘freely’ was omitted from the Objectives Resolution in 1985 by a dictator, which was an act of criminal negligence, but the then parliament surprisingly didn’t take notice of it. He said the Constitution is a sacred document and no person can tamper with it. The chief justice said credit must go to the present parliament, which after 25 years took notice of the brazen act of removing the word relating to the minorities’ rights, and restored the word ‘freely’ in the Objectives Resolution, which had always been part of the Constitution. The chief justice further said that the court is protecting the fundamental rights of the minorities and the government after the Gojra incident has provided full protection to the minorities. “We are bound to protect their rights as a nation but there are some individual who create trouble.” CJ lauds parliament for undoing changes in Objectives Resolution Wednesday, June 09, 2010
Says minorities’ rights have to be protected; Hamid says parliament should have no role in judges’ appointment By Sohail Khan http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?I…
Mughal
thanks to Allah that poor ifti admits this deadly blunder while he is active CJP.What can we would have done if he said that after his retirment.
There is no harm if people admit their mistake and try to correct it using their position.
This brutal massacre of ahmedi might give passage to their harassed free survival as normal human being who want to live according to their own faith.
You see now you are also on this theme of justifying Ahmedi as victim of brutal laws in islamic republic of Pakistan.
Sadly since General Zia ul-Haq’s times there have been certain laws in acted into our constitution which curtails the free practice of the Ahmedi religion
=================================
Even Ifti admits it in the Daily Dawn too!
ISLAMABAD: Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry on Tuesday praised the parliament for undoing a wrong done by the legislature in 1985 (through a constitutional amendment) when it removed the word ‘freely’ from a clause of the Objectives Resolution that upheld the minorities’ right to practise their religion. The word “freely” was deleted from the Objectives Resolution when parliament passed the 8th Amendment after indemnifying all orders introduced through the President’s Order No 14 of 1985 and actions, including the July 1977 military takeover by Gen Zia-ul-Haq and extending discretion of dissolving the National Assembly, by invoking Article 58(2)b of the Constitution. After the passage of the 18th Amendment, the Objectives Resolution now reads: “Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their culture.” The CJ said: “Credit goes to the sitting parliament that they reinserted the word back to the Objectives Resolution.” He said that nobody realised the blunder right from 1985 till the 18th Amendment was passed, even though the Objectives Resolution was a preamble to the Constitution even at the time when RCO (Revival of Constitution Order) was promulgated. CJ lauds parliament for correcting historic wrong By Nasir Iqbal Wednesday, 09 Jun, 2010 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-…
If Hasba Bill was right then why did the JI accepted the SC Decision and if it was wrong then why Hasba Bill was presented at all and if both the statement are wrong then what was the need to exploit the name of Islam to get some vote. Read the past history Hasba bill infringes personal freedom: SC By Nasir Iqbal September 1, 2005 Thursday Rajab 26, 1426 http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/01/top4.htm MMA to accept SC decision: Durrani By Anwar Iqbal July 18, 2005 Monday Jumadi-us-Sani 10, 1426 http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/18/top2.htm
“QUOTE” Sayyid Abul A‘la Maudoodi – His views bearing on the Ahmadiyya Movement
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/maudoodi/index….
Scanned image of Maudoodi’s letter saying Lahore Ahmadiyya is a Muslim Group Page 1 (of 4) of the letter
(You can see that he has crossed out his old address, Hyderabad Deccan, on the printed letter head and written in Darus Salaam, Pathankot, Punjab in its place.)
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/maudoodi/letter…
The translation: The Urdu text of the above section of Maudoodi’s letter, in printed format, is given below: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/maudoodi/letter…
"UNQUOTE"
Mughal
This is very eye opening letter for all jamaitis or sunnis who are for last 30 years have been brainwashed that Ahmedi are declared murtad and eligible to kill in our Islamic culture.
It is not surprise that maudoudi was one of influential scholar of south Asia and it is same area which was among the first by adopting hostile and deadly attitude against Ahmedi.
So it is every important and need to work that why most of Islamic scholars under JI projected this anti ahmedi campaign if Maudoudi had already provided written statement in their favor.
On WHAT basis Bhutto and his parliament approved this bill when the top leader provided this written affidavit directly to Ahmedi group?
Why this letter was not projected by Ahmedi group to shut the voices rising against them at the time of 1970s.
was it Saudi funded game to create such kind of hatred movement under Bhutto a strong political icon of that era?
@Nazia: Declaration of Ahmadi's as non-muslims is not peculiar to Sunnis. All factions agree on this thing.
@Mughal: I think there are two factions within Ahmedi's. The Lahori faction does not believe that Ghulam Ahmed was a prophet & i think some ulema accept them as muslims based on this fact (i am not sure about this but this is what i have heard).
Secondly, I think there are two issues that need to be looked at separately.
One is whether Ulema & we as muslims have the right to consider Ahmedi's non-muslims or not. And two, whether state has any right to declare them non-muslims.
Regarding the first point, as a muslim i consider Ahmedi's non-muslims. There is nothing wrong in this as some 'liberals' want us to believe. The Ahmedi's also consider us non-muslims because we do not believe that ghulam ahmed was a messiah & a prophet.
Regarding the second point i guess it might be a debatable issue as it does not have anything to do with anyones' personal faith. I for one support the State's right to declare them non-muslims. If we don't than we run the risk of gradually corrupting our religious beliefs. That is my opinion.
However, declaring someone non-muslim does not mean that they have lesser rights than muslims. This is not what our religion teaches us but sadly this is what is taught at some madaris. And people involved in these heinous crimes think they are doing it for the sake of Islam. We should be taught to hate kufr & not the kafir but we are instead taught to hate the kafir.
Al says:-June 10, 2010 at 3:13 pm @Nazia: Declaration of Ahmadi’s as non-muslims is not peculiar to Sunnis. All factions agree on this thing.
=====================
Who is Muslim in Pakistan anyway?
Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! – Deobandi Mazhab:1/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyf5FlzDInI&fe…
Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! – Ahl-e-Hadith is exposing Jamat-e-Islami – Jamat Islami and Moulana Moududi’s corrupt Manhaj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJ8OQoFsjg
Jamat Islami and Moulana Moududi’s corrupt Manhaj-part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylx8_GvWuFk&fe…
Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! Ahl-e-Hadith is exposing Jamat-e-Islami Iqamat-E-Deen Aur Jamaat-E-Islaami – 1/7(Urdu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdxccyRJtMs&fe…
Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! Ahl-e-hadees Deobandion ka postmortem, part 5 of 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixq1YXKskL8&fe…
Mughal
declaration of Muslim or non Muslims is very touchy matter in our hypocrite culture and except poor and high class , you can find majority is following this marathon of behaving more Muslims than others living around each other.
Here I put blame on activating and projecting blasphemy laws as such laws also ensue such conditions of inferiority and superiority complexes in any community living with different beliefs.
Through my little experience I get this conclusion that more the family is invloved in daras culture, it means they can be placed in list of most corrupt characters of any society.
These scenes are very common in senior govt officials living setup.
The walls of houses are now filled with Koranic verses, Allah's name, placing the photos of Kabas or Holy places This is also type of common trend to impress each other.This trend is commonly seen in business community who whole day cheat their clients and customers.
On the basis of such hypocrite attitude of people in society I many times raise this question that who and how we can decide that who is better Muslim in our society.
All time I get typical unpractical statements related to golden history of Islam which hardly found in their daily acts.
You are also specialized in this field which reminds me such kind of sittings , have become very popular in our culture in last years to show each other that they are better Muslims than others.
@Aamir Mughal: The links you have given are besides the point i was making. Each of these factions also declare each other Kaafir without blinking their eyes.
I consider this all stupidity. For one they base their beliefs on books written less than 150 years ago & then declare each other Kaafir based on what is written in these books.
I agree that this is sadly true. And if these Maulvis ever got any real power there would be a lot of bloodshed.
But my point is this that no one of us is going to accept as muslims anyone who does not believe in the finality of the Prophet (PBUH).
I don't care what some maulana wrote a 100 years ago or a 150 years ago. That might be his opinion but Islam is not based on these books. Islam is based on the Quran & Hadith.
And anyone who does not believe in the finality of the Prophet (PBUH) is not a muslim in my eyes & should not be in the eyes of every muslim.
Nazia says: – June 10, 2010 at 10:17 am Mughal You see now you are also on this theme of justifying Ahmedi as victim of brutal laws in islamic republic of Pakistan.
===============================
I am not on Ifti's Theme. I condemned the Massacre of Ahmedis because it was against the Clear instructions given in Quran and Hadiths on the Rights of Non-Muslims.
Like you all sane minds would condemn the brutal way of killing of Ahmedis but when Ifti in this position admits this on official scale it matters a lot and give us sense that state is in mood of revising its unjustified legal coverage to its citizens as minority.
CJP is follower of constitution of Pakistan and if in this regard he disobeys the Islamic norms then I dont think that he should put out of range of Islam.
I am sure if he had said this thing in 1970s he was thrown out of job or even placed under blasphemous laws in that era.
So you see however on official level ahmedis didnt get any state response in recent massacre for their consoling and moral uplifting but electronic media and civil society have provided them full moral support on all levels and that is bringing change in the volatile attitude of extreme mullahs.
However this political motivated massacre would create long term affect in southern Punjab which is going to come under threat of state military actions.
it can be a practical example of kill tow birds with one stone.
Aone
People start discussion with good mood and welcoming speech but you first throw perils of curses before replying me for energizing your skills.
read carefully I didnt mention any racial or ethnic color while describing altaf character in Punjab and frontier poltics but highlighting his low quality attitude of cowardice and settlement in foreign land as major issue of his rejection in that area.
You ignored that I gave my observation that even remote areas of frontier still love bhuttos a pure sindhi fedual as Bhutto didnt take support of winning the heart of all over Pakistanis through fake coverage in electronic media or telephonic speeches.
For me it is shock to see when people of remote area of Punjab and Khyber show their soft corner for bhutto but it is reality and majority of them or their new generation have become voters of sharif as they live in different ways close to them.
That is difference between altaf hussin and other leaders.
It is good to hear that you are voter of imran in 2002 and praising mqm poltical ways.I have already told you this kind of politics is only possible in the net world
In practical life no Imran khan supporter ever think of favoring mqm under alaf hussain leadership.
I have carefully watched two elections of Karachi one in which kamal mustafa and his team won and other was 2008 elections.I am crystal clear how mqm filled their ballot boxes under state protection.
Please show this figures to US and donors of mqm.People living in Karachi know all reality but these edcuated people have no clue how to get rid of this mqm mafia.
This time mustafa kamal has provided good platform to 30 years history of mqm to come to public with some respectable stance to get votes for them.
But we all know mqm is behaving like extremist in Karachi politics .Massacring of locals on different events UNDER STATE PROTECTION and continuous target killing of political characters are quite visible examples of this attitude.
Aone
You are only focusing on the difference of nature of violence and I am trying to give you common factors in our different areas.
I have told you many times for Karachi people different nature of violence was designed and it got shape as per trend of local culture.
Have you seen any family in Karachi who start aerial firing on the birth of sons for hours .
Have you ever observed that 6 or 7 years kid of Karachi start butchering goats as most joyful childhood activity.
Do you know any family in Karachi who give gift of modern weapons to their young son as symbol of pride.
Collective decision on the basis of old cultural and strict religious basis are primary way of distributing justice in community under the tag of jirga system.
All such activities are normal practice in our frontier where playing arms, butchering , killing for revenge basis and following abnormal family laws are mandatory practices for grooming youth.
That is why the violence generated here looks us more horrific than we saw in karachi area.Here I also added that intervene of US has prolonged this violence culture and tending toward more deadly consequences due to retaliatory nature of puktoons.On the other hand Karachi violence subsided after getting peak as per resistant quality of local and mqm management took no time to shake hand with establishment for saving their souls.I have already mentioned that same attitude would be adopted for TTPby same establishment, perhaps its monogram would be changed as soon as US will windup its mission in our soil.
The way you are ignoring common factors in both kind of violence is typical tone of mqm workers.Although you are trying to implicate altaf hussain in worng doings but if you ask the real victims of karachi and kyber PK violence, their feedback would always be same.
I again say that efficacy of disaster on northern side is enormous as compared what happened in Karachi which I think is miscalculation and underestimation of master minder of taliban creators and it is no doubt are our agencies and military managment.
So you are chasing the difference? and I am trying to focus on commonly reasons for arising disturbances in our areas again and again.
Why our land is all time fertile for genocide of minorities and weak class and each time victims are ignorant people and all influential groups stay as such no matter violence produced is tagged with different reasons.
@Nazia: What you are quoting are all cultural practices. They don't have anything to do with ethnicity or genetics. Its not like a Pathan born in the US is automatically going to start firing AK-47s or killing goats. Its the culture, not the genes.
If you know anything than the educated Pathan families are actually quite cultured. I have Pathan cousins from one side of my family who were bought up in Karachi & they are nothing like you describe. So you can stop stereotyping.
I agree that some ethnicities are more violent than others but i think that is a factor of culture, economic & social circumstances. Its not genetic. If you study history, the Japanese were a very violent nation & carried out a lot of atrocities during the 2nd World War. But after that we see they have turned into a passive & docile nation.
This is a really racist argument that some people are inherently violence prone because of their genes. It is like some people in the US say that blacks are inherently more prone to crime than Whites. The statistics support this argument too but the statistics ignore the socio-economic circumstances that have led Blacks towards violence.
I don't think you have met many MQM workers. Come to Karachi & i will introduce you to some. There is no common factor between the political violence in Karachi & the ideological violence of the Taliban. The only thing common is the loss of life & impact on economic development.
As far as the Taliban are concerned i don't think it was so much miscalculation as willful facilitation by our agencies. Even today the establishment is not ready to fully eradicate the various militant groups altogether. They still have agreement with certain groups & they want to keep them active in the anticipation that the US is close to leaving Afghanistan.
Once the US leaves, these so called 'assets' are again going to be used in Afghanistan to gain influence. I don't know if we can blame the establishment entirely because its not alone in this. India & Iran are also active in gaining influence in Afghanistan & they think its in Pakistan's interest that we retain some influence in the country.
The violence is not peculiar to our region & our country. It has been bought about because of outside interference in the region. Europe has a very violent history if you care to study.
Al says: – June 10, 2010 at 11:46 pm @Aamir Mughal: The links you have given are besides the point i was making. Each of these factions also declare each other Kaafir without blinking their eyes.
=========================
MORE SHAME: Deobandi Pir Criteria: [18+]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKDauS2im_Q&fe…
Tariq Jameel & Taqi Usmani kay Kufriya Aqaid-Real face of Deoband Exposed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pOvJhg6Puo&fe…
Sheikh M Ikram in one of his books Mauj Kausar, Aab-e-Kausar and Rood-e-Kausar had written that if Hanafis Law Book Fatawa-e-Alamgiri's Apostasy Law is fully implemented then nobody would remain Muslims in the Sub Continent.
ایک ہی ہوں مسلم حرام کی پاسبانی کے لیہ
نیل کے ساحل سے لے کر تابخا کے کاشغر تک “سب کافر ہیں
Tariq Jameel Ki Haqeeqat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxETGx91GQw&fe…
A glimpse: Darul Uloom Deoband Founder Ashraf Ali Thanvi Sexy Molvi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cay47oW-FnI
People say that there is dearth of Electricity in Pakistan – No more load shedding – Deobandi Power Generators/Deobandi Rental Power Plant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nar2Q17jI4o&fe…
MTV CLASSICS OR DEOBANDI MUSIC BOX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrrPkL8wo14
Blasphemy by Barelvis: Refutation of Brelviat 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTZALzZjvQY&fe…
Al says: – June 10, 2010 at 11:46 pm @Aamir Mughal: The links you have given are besides the point i was making. Each of these factions also declare each other Kaafir without blinking their eyes.
=========================
Cock Fight between Barelvis and Wahabis [Ahl-e-Hadith/Salafi]:New Munazarah Gumrah or Gustakh Koun hai? 22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozD9H_dF_Y&fe…
Deobandis and taliabn cultures are very much dominant in our urban areas and we, insecure Pakistanis are left on the mercy of these illiterate clerks .
if they are happy with all this dirt then it is gurantee of our peace and if not happey with each other arguments, ready for riots on our street.
I think it was same group which got popularity on Fatwa for sale scandal and it was caught and revealed through secret cameras in Indian tv .Then his chief was removed and when dust settled brought him back in actions again.
By the way who funds them for all this?
Allama Iqbal was inspired by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Quadiyani
Anti-Ahmadiyya Mullah compelled to admit facts. {Truth Speaks out !!!} http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWAwvmC42rE&fe…
Aone
first you say
What you are quoting are all cultural practices. They don't have anything to do with ethnicity or genetics.
then in forwarding comment you negate your own statement.
I agree that some ethnicities are more violent than others but i think that is a factor of culture, economic & social circumstances.Its not genetic.
Aggressive nature, talking in high tones,eating habits ,physical strength etc are transferred through genes but in developing process of physical traits, genes are just a part of the story, as variety of genetic and environmental factors are involved in the development of any trait. Having a genetic variant doesn't necessarily mean that a particular trait will develop if circumstances are not provided to them.
Culture and ethnic touch under specific parameters naturally develop our genetic skills which sometimes can not be revealed if environment is not provided to them and humans have to work hard more to acquire other habits of surrounding.
So your Karachi cousins never saw anything that can trigger their genetically behaviour in accordance with their forefathers.
Any how I am still stick to my point of view that types of terrorism looks you different but its design has come from same source and what you say depending upon ethnic or idealogy , it gets in shape in our soil.
Designers of war on terror think that TTP would be deactivated as they did to mqm and biharis but all time is not good time and this act is strongly being back fired.
No govt could have eliminated the complexes of mqm workers even they are part of govt for long time.Hardly any other party has taken such tenure of rule but still cry like problem child.
Same you would see in Taliban circle.they are living with us.Attacking at our homes,killing us at our doorsteps, know our all whereabouts as they are joint of us.
Both are political moves camouflaged by ethnic and religious shield and end result is same weakening of Pakistan and Pakistanis as nation.
@Nazia: There is obviously no use arguing with you because all your arguments are based on some personal experience (probably imagined like you imagine the things i am saying) rather than common sense and logic.
You seem to know everyone in Pakistan firsthand right from MQM activists to Lahore businessmen who keep mistresses to generals to politicians to singers who sleep around. Name a person & you will know him, or know who he or she has slept with, or you will know their wives, or you will know who they are having an affair with.
Read again the entire sentence:
"I agree that some ethnicities are more violent than others but i think that is a factor of culture, economic & social circumstances. Its not genetic."
Now read again after the 'but' because i am sure you still wouldn't have understood.
Violence is a cultural issue. Japanese have a very violent past but look at them now. If it was genetic you are not suggesting they have re-engineered their genes?
Culture & Genetics are two very different things. I don't know where you come up with your senseless arguments.
Kalashinkovs are less than a 100 years old. Guns were probably introduced in the area 300 or 400 years ago. What were the Pathans doing before that if you say its in their genes to pick up guns and start firing when they are happy or when a child is born? Or are you suggesting that their genes have evolved in 300 years and now include a DNA for Kalashinkovs?
So according to your logic anytime a pathan who has been born & bought up in the US or UK comes across a gun or Kalashinkov, this gene kicks into gear & he picks it up and starts firing.
Now either you are trying to be funny or you are thinking from somewhere other than your head.
Aone
Did I say that I Played buntay(marbles) with Altaf hussian
If I would have said like that then you can mock on my honorific imagination .What you asked to me I replied you as per my experience.
Where in my comments I tried to impress you through theoretical and impractical knowledge.I many times told you that I mostly take part on those discussions which I personally know through different routes..I live in hypocrite society but try to not part of it.
We all must share this burden that ahmedis or target killing of karachi is doing due to our hypocrisy and closing eye life styles.We avoid to pinpoint killers/criminals who live around us like neat men.
We pick them our leaders and then support it through different diplomatic ways.
You are trying to make cocktail of my comments which I wrote as continuity in different discussions.
What is your real problem?
if you are hurt to hear the scandals of white collar people then who is forcing you to trust on my words.
I have given you names and venues.So approve or disapprove through your link.It is not my headache to force you to believe me.
I am very poor in my imagination as per your assumption.
I am more practical than your thoughts.
I am more straightforward than your expectation and more blunt than your apprehension.
If you dont believe that terrorism in our soil was and still being designed on the basis of our genetics, traditions and complexes due to state negligence then stick to your theoretical knowledge of social sciences .
I am telling you agressive nature which living beings acquire on genes basis and you are telling me history of KK.
what a relevancy up to level of stupidity you are expressing.
Instead of criticizing on my observation try to improve your practical experience which you have lost in this network.
My criticism is based on logic. You are just making absurd arguments. No where have you been able to convince me & i doubt anyone else on this forum that the political violence of Karachi & ideological violence emanating from FATA have anything in common.
You don't seem to understand the first thing about what are the reasons behind the violence in both areas – to you it is all related to genetics. You ignore facts like almost half of the militants arrested during the last year belonged to South Punjab because they do not go along well with your stupid theory.
This stupid approach is exactly what the US government would want people to believe. That some people are inherently violent, inherently suicidal & so there is no need to understand the reasons behind the violence.
This is the explanation given about the Palestinians. There is no need to consider that they have been made refugees in their own lands & are persecuted & humiliated on a daily basis. They want people to believe that the Palestinian violence has nothing to do with these facts. The violence is there because Palestinians are just inherently like that.
This same logic is used for the 911 hijackers. There was no questions raised as to what were their motifs? Why were they so angry with the US? Does the Palestinian suffering have anything to do with it? Is the US presence in the Muslim Holy Lands have anything to do with it? None of these questions were raised. Instead the mainstream narrative was that these muslims were just inherently suicidal and mad.
This same stupid logic is what you are peddling. That we do not need to understand the socio-economic circumstances in the region, the presence of foreign troops, the deliberate radicalization of the population that was done to meet the foreign policy goals of the regional & super powers. You want everyone to believe that the Pakhtun are just genetically and inherently violent & suicidal.