Why perceptions matter more than grievances: Conspiracy theories, our Achilles heal?

Conspiracy theories are making a big splash in both the domestic and international media. While we in Pakistan are often angered as to how Pakistan is portrayed in the Western media, the same people seem to be supporting various individuals and right wing parties who are also gaining much traction with foreign correspondents in Pakistan.

Recent articles in the NY Times, Times and The Guardian all highlight some of the more outlandish (outlandish for me, common sense to others) arguments to explain the various challenges that the country faces. These articles and conspiracy theorist skeptics recognize that by offering elaborate and complex explanations for Pakistan’s miseries politicians, generals, media personalities etc are trying to deflect responsibility onto un-provable external actors. Not only are they deferring any questions that may be linked to their contribution to the nations state of affairs, by making statements such as “external actors cannot be ruled out” the narrative of the Pakistani state being constantly under siege is maintained.

But is this neat explanation, often cited true? While conspiracy theorists blame acts of terrorism and the nations economic woes on foreign factors they present themselves as diagonally opposite to those who would seek to undermine the Pakistani state. They situate themselves as the enlightened patriots who have a clear understanding of the nefarious designs of foreign powers. However, a major problem with conspiracy theories is that they point to vague, external actors over whom we have little power to act against.

The rise of terrorism and economic chaos along with the conspiratorial explanations for the latter’s upsurge are not interrelated as much as they are a product of the state of society. Fundamentalism in part, has been blamed on inward looking Madrassas where rote learning acts as a tool to brain wash young children to accept an intolerant world view. In urban centres children in public schooling are likely to follow a similar path, years of rote learning and regurgitation of facts and figures with no emphasis on analysis or questioning the very foundations of knowledge an army of urban youths have been trained in skills and armed with knowledge that is increasingly irrelevant in the modern work place.

Our government has long recognized the nexus between high unemployment and the ability of terrorist organizations to recruit amongst disgruntled youth. Similarly media outlets and certain personalities have understood the frustration of young people and the need for someone to offer answers as to why Pakistan is seemingly hostage to the next act of violence or the next spike in oil prices. Both sides are able to offer answers and a sense of purpose.

General Stanley McChrystal has rightly recognized that the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan is a war of perceptions. Local populations are likely to support the side which for them, at the local level seems to be winning. The overwhelming might of NATO’s firepower is unlikely to impress a local farmer in a remote village while strategic heights are controlled by a band of zealous Taliban fighters. McChrystal’s emphasis on winning over local populations via controlling information flows points to a massive gap in the government of Pakistan’s attitude towards both terrorist organizations and the media in general.

The lack of transparency and openness on the part of both the government and the military in dealings with foreign powers and local fundamentalist groups has created information vacuums. The government and the military denied predator drones were operating from Pakistan until pictures of them emerged, the presence of Blackwater in Pakistan was denied until Secretary Gates spilled the beans and the organizations role in training security forces in the NWFP and Islamabad was recognized. The Quetta Shura that until six weeks ago according to the government didn’t exist has in the last week seen half of its members arrested across the country.

These along with several other examples suggest that the government actually helps create the conditions, which are exploited by both right-wing groups hell bent on spewing hatred and fundamentalists spewing religious intolerance who are then able to dominate national conversations.

Two solutions are offered. On the one hand in the short-run the government and the military should try to treat its citizens with a certain degree of respect and encourage greater transparency and openness. In the long-run massive investment must be made to reclaim the minds of young people who are increasingly influenced by hatred and the perception of being surrounded by enemies. Through an overhaul in education coupled with greater access to information and knowledge young people must be offered a future full of hope and prosperity, rather than the spectre of a constant struggle to defend the state against foreign enemies.

Pakistan is likely to continue to face international ridicule as we seek to explain away all our problems by blaming America-India-Israel or whoever is fashionable at the time. While in several cases we may rightly point at foreign interference and failings, our inability to help ourselves seems to baffle both foreign and local observers. As policy and opinion is formulated more along the line of perceptions rather than fact it has become essential that fringe and extremist voices are challenged by an alternative narrative that does not display helplessness and political noise in the face of adversity; rather adopting a narrative that makes the most of what we as a nation can control for and alter to tackle terrorism, injustice and economic plight.



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72 responses to “Why perceptions matter more than grievances: Conspiracy theories, our Achilles heal?”

  1. Wasio Abbasi Avatar
    Wasio Abbasi

    Having a centralized structure and military being the most powerful institution, it is inevitable that the control on information will be maximum at the higher ups. With the way the society has degraded over the years due to mistakes of the past (and present) governments and several times increase in every factor harmful to the people and nation, the people are ripe for being mislead with little persuasion.

    That's what gave power to media anchors and self-appointed intellectuals to become gurus and start solving peoples problems by answering unanswered questions, only to add more problems to already over-burdened brains.

    We have been used as tools, we're being used as tools and we'll be continuously used as a tool because that's what nation has been conditioned to for many decades and these conspiracy theories will only serve to drive us mad.

  2. Esther Trojan Avatar
    Esther Trojan

    Pakistan is doomed unless it changes radically. It should restore its constitution to pre-1972, before Zia f@@cked it.

    Pak should follow in the footsteps of Qaid, whose wife was a Parsi and daughter married a parsee, took Indian nationality and stayed in UK.

    Can we visualize a society like that?

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Jinnah did married a Parsi but after converting her to Shia Faith and Dina Wadia d/o Jinnah married Neville Wadia Dina Wadia visits mausoleum of Quaid By Our Reporter 27 March 2004 Saturday 05 Safar 142 5http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/27/top11.htm

    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      This will further clarify Jinnah's Religion and Politics.

      Hye said, adding in afterthought, "except in Connaught Place where he would sometimes go to a club." Though not a practising Muslim, Jinnah disinherited his only daughter for having married outside the fold of religion. Hye was witness and accomplice to the clandestine love affair between Dina and Neville Wadia, and would throw the rest of the family off scent during their frequent assignations. A ringside view A conversation with Sayed Shah Abdul Hye, Mohammad Ali Jinnah's chauffeur. PARVATHI MENON in Udipi Volume 18 – Issue 18, Sep. 01 – 14, 2001 http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl1818/18181290.htm

    3. Nazia Avatar


      If Ruti was immature than Jinnah was not an immature young man who couldnt understand the feelings of caring father for her daughter.

      He also met his lover in house of his close friend in BOMBAY without the consent of her father .This dating remain continued till she become 18 and married to her through court orders.

      Ruti convert in not love for Islam or shiaism but for a timely passion for a man.

      This is same as Jemima changed her faith just for Imran khan and then repented after some time.

      The time has proved that she was wrong and nature has repeated the scene of desperation of beloved father in Jinnah's house.Now the victims was Jinnah himself.

      His only daughter never taken his advice and opted for fear free inclination toward parsi family which she naturally inherited through blood.

      So God had shown glimpses of HIS justice to Jinnah exactly in same way with more tragic results


      This love story is lesson learning for many literary characters like that

      -Men shouldnt entice the young girls against the wishes of their family as sooner their kids would show same attitude.

      -Passing lives in literary hobbies and even in law aware environment cant help anyone to understand the real importance of family life and its true technicalities.

      -Religion change is not an easy task specially if it is done for getting the love of any person.

      Rebellious Attitude of individuals against the norms of his/her roots and religion hardly go for long lasting relations.

  3. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    nice issue this time.

    I can understand the friendly complain from other side(the side where USA and her pakistani liberal friends stand together)

    the complain is why you blame us for every thing wrong while we both(USA/Pakistani civil and millitary establishment)know that the we share the equal burdens of the crimes committed against paksitani people.

    i am getting impression from this articles that USA,israel and India are heavenly nations descended from skies on earth for peace, justice, liberty and freedom and pakistani establishment is real criminal who rules over mentally retarded nation….am i worng?

    would any one tell me how one can deny the crimes committed against the humanity by these countries.

    Don't you listen the Noam chomsky, webster tarpley, Michael Chossudovsky and other scholars.

    There are two complain in this article.One is right and the other doesn't make any sense.The right complain is that:

    "we spent billions of dollars in a war against the terrorism, we are the super power and you are nothing but an ally with specific and limited roll and we pay for this roll.Why you cross the limit all the time? why don't you take the rightfull share of blame over chaos which is created with your help?

    why you deny the drones fly from with in the pakistan.

    why you don't convince pakistani people that black water is necessary in achiving our goals?while you take the money for that.

    the second complain is not justified.Ignoring the fact that pakistan is not a state by any mean rather a highly profitable and lucrative investment for pakistani establishment.THEY SHALL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DESTROY THEIR VALUABLE ASSET. you have already infuriated them by involving their old and traditional enemies (india and non pashtoon haters of pakistan)

    i mean you don't expact indians to just build the roads, infrastructure, schools, hospitals and invest billions of rupees for uplifting the afghans for the sake of humanity?….Are you saying that indians do not have any strategic goals behind their recent expedition of Afghanistan? why you expect pakistan to help you blindly without playing a double game?


    For me conspiracy theory is a tag applied because of your inability to answer the questions of sane and learned people who are not ready to believe in your stories.

    How these conspiracy theories originated? i give you the example….

    i am passing through market. i hear the gun shot on my back and the scream after gun shot.i return to the spot and i see the dead body drenched in the blood. Later on i watch the tv and news appears that in that market a person died because of heart attack. Now i try to convince the people that it doesn't look right, i heard the gun shot and a scream and i saw the blood .the general public is not ready to believe me and say that dr jawwad has gone nut why? …because the official story is about heart attack which is confirmed by police officer and fornsic specialists. but what about those who heard the gun shot and saw the blood? will they digest the official story? what will be the logical conclusion of the offical story?…that this murder is sponsored by the state…am i wrong?

    For me the so called conspiracy theories are not really conspiracy theories. These theories are based on questions raised by learned and sane people who point out the technical flaws in the story and give you the logical conclusions, compatible with the ground reality.

    For me the conspiracy theory is an alternative source of knowledge which makes more sense than the official stories….why? Because official theories like 9/11, global warming, H1N1 etc don’t make any sense, because those who have technical knowledge and expertise in these issue give you the different picture and more logical picture.


    Propaganda and mind control is like cultivation of crop. You cant just throw the seeds and expect a full grown crop with in a minute. There are lots of works to be done before that….unfortunately (and fortunately for me) the psyche and mindset of Pakistanis is built on outward looking. They blame others for their problems. This point is hard to exploit even a resourceful super power like America. America has enormous capabilities of propaganda and mind control . I believe in the current world no other power is even nearer to the America in this field in terms of expertise and scientific knowledge. They did marvelous job in penetrating deep inside the so called Pakistani intellectuals and society. People have adopted your ways of thinking, dressing, eating and “drinking” but you can’t convince Pakistani population that you are the heavenly angel come here to solve our problems. This point is best exploited by Pakistani establishment and I can fully understand the helplessness and complains regarding your non existing image.

    Best regards

  4. Muhammad Shemyal Nisar Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nisar

    I think I can raise a thousand questions out of this, but would try and talk about only a few.
    “Fundamentalism in part, has been blamed on inward looking Madrassas where rote learning acts as a tool to brain wash young children to accept an intolerant world view. In urban centres children in public schooling are likely to follow a similar path, years of rote learning and regurgitation of facts and figures with no emphasis on analysis or questioning the very foundations of knowledge an army of urban youths have been trained in skills and armed with knowledge that is increasingly irrelevant in the modern work place.”
    Can you please elaborate what would be “relevant knowledge in the modern work place”? Plus is it not the same all over the world? I mean I have had firsthand experience with British education for instance and I found it even worse.
    “General Stanley McChrystal has rightly recognized that the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan is a war of perceptions……….”
    I would beg to differ here. For I know many a people who sympathize with the so-called terrorists because they consider US as an aggressor state and our government as an instrument for American foreign policy. So I think it is the difference of perspective. Not everybody is ready to accept the entity as a terrorist just so you are calling it so. Secondly, not everybody judges everything in terms of profit and loss in this part of the world.
    “The government and the military denied predator drones were operating from Pakistan until pictures of them emerged, the presence of Blackwater in Pakistan was denied until Secretary Gates spilled the beans and the organizations role in training security forces in the NWFP and Islamabad was recognized.”
    The very same people you label as right wing conspiracy theorist were the first ones to say that blackwater has come into Pakistan with the consent of the federal government. So is it that until anything is confirmed by “Robert Gates” you are not going to believe it and keep on blame those who confirm these news as conspiracy theorist?
    @ dr. jawad
    I think you made a very good comment.

  5. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    @Farrah Shah!
    @Mohammed Shemyal Nisar!

    thanks a lot for appericiation i am really honored and moved.

  6. Nazia Avatar

    Perception is strong driving force in all species to run their routine activities in some orderly manners.

    Humans have more strong instincts of perception depending circumstances, facial expression,through interpersonal contacts,foreseeing by collecting facts etc

    I don't know how perception can matter more than grievances is valid sentence in our system .We are being framed on perception of west,actions(conspiracy theories) of rulers and bureaucracy and all this ultimately multiplying our grievances.

    US and western think tanks are calling it war of ideas but we as victims of are no more interested in more conspiracy theories.Our sovereignty and survival is on stake.Recent forceful blasts in Lahore is clear signs of our failed perception of army management that they can eradicate this wave of extremism through force of military.

    Situation has become more complex then we thought few years back before commencing this operation .Religious wild card is still uncover triumph move of hidden controllers of state any time any where.

  7. farrahshah Avatar

    Dr Jawwad

    What a comment .Super fantastic.

  8. Aamir Mughal Avatar

    Nazia says: March 12, 2010 at 9:15 pm


    Excellent Post Ms. Nazia. Thanks for sharing.

  9. Aamir Mughal Avatar


    “Muslims, you are puppets, and you will do exactly what we want you to do, not what your Prophet or God wants you to, but you play the game to our specifications” – No one has made this statement, it is understood to work that way. THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Should Muslims Play the Game? Mike Ghouse, November 15, 2008 http://www.foundationforpluralism.com/WorldMuslim


  10. khalid humayun Avatar

    The country is burning and we are discussing psychology and philosophy. As I am writing down this piece of comments, Lahore sustained 5 blasts at this point of time and God knows how many more is in the pipeline.

    We should look into ground realities. Suicide bombing is a well established industry. Not much brain washing is needed by Terrorism trainers to prepare the teen Pakhtoons for suicide bombing because of drone attacks. Very big fishes are involved in this business and million of dollars are changing hands. Who are funding them? From where the exploding material is reaching in Terrorism industry. Baitullah Masood used to pay Rs.15,000/month to each member of his so called army and looks like the system continues by his successors. Money does not bloom on trees, can't we detect the source? And we are discussing perception, there is only one perception – powers that be are either helpless to do anything or simply they do not know their right direction.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Of course Khalid Sahab is correct but shouldn't we question the below mentioned gentleman who with another Brigadier was hoodwinking Pakistan on GEO TV Last night in Saleem Safi's Jirga [and Hamid Gul often do that as well] The New York Times column and only one sentence says it all: Former Pakistani Officer Embodies a Policy Puzzle By CARLOTTA GALL Published: March 3, 2010 A version of this article appeared in print on March 4, 2010, on page A6 of the New York edition. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/world/asia/04im
      Once a promising protégé for the United States, Brig. Sultan Amir, who is known as Col. Imam, has taught insurgent tactics.

    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Some Clues!

      Iran Contra Coverup: 1 of 8


      Part I: Introduction

      Part II: Organizing for National Security

      Part III: Arms Transfers to Iran

      Part IV: What Was Wrong

    3. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Do we even deserve to lodge a complain in the light of all the reports [US Senate Public Record against their own CIA] in the light of this: Toasts of President Reagan and President Mobammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan at the State Dinner

      December 7, 1982 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=4

  11. Aamir Mughal Avatar

    Not everything is "Conspiracy Theory" US Senate Church Committee Report [US CIA involvement in Chile]

    Text: Henry Kissinger & Covert Action in Chile 1963-1973.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Do watch the Arrogant Behaviour of CIA Director Richard Helms [it will give you the idea about the rogue behaviour of Hamid Gul, Asad Durrani, Brigadier Imtiaz, Akhter Abdul Rehman, and General Mahmud]

    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Several Official in US Administration passed million of Dollars to Iranian Cutthroat Mullahs and met Khomeini to delay the hostage release for the sake of US Election Campaign.Iran Contra Coverup: 2 of 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XITcdoRWPt8&fe

  12. Aamir Mughal Avatar

    CIA covert operations manager Ted Shackley aka Blond Ghost

    John Stockwell on the CIA Training Terrorists

  13. Nadir El Edroos Avatar
    Nadir El Edroos

    Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate everyone's opinion regardless of your position as it is clear that for any reader such a topic does develop opinionated points. While I wont start giving responses to each and every comment as the purpose of writing such a piece is to foster debate and not to attack alternative views, may I point the readers attention towards the issue of responsibility. Yes, America no doubt has had many hands in many pies and is responsible for destabilizing many countries, but as citizens of a sovereign country, when it comes to responsibility of events that take place in our country it is only our government and security forces who we can hold responsible. We can protest against American actions but as Pakistani citizens out sphere of influence is limited towards the Pakistani state and its allied institutions.

    After what has happened in Lahore over the past 24 hours the usual chorus of "foreign elements" involved started like clockwork. Granted and agreed, but does this absolve our state of its responsibility to protect its citizens? Regardless of who is behind terrorist activities its the states responsibility to protect its citizens. Right now we seem to be handing out blame but no one is talking about what will be done to make sure that what happened yesterday dosnt happen again. Thus, I submit, it is time for our government and security forces to take responsibility of what happens in our country regardless of the source. We cant wait for the world to accept our point of view, why? Because while we give speeches on foreign hand and how "evidence will be provided at a relevant forum" our country men are dying.

    1. Nadir El Edroos Avatar
      Nadir El Edroos

      Case in point http://thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=100584

      How does this help us in anyway?

      "Addressing a news conference here on Friday, Hasan advised the ruling PPP to give the portfolio of interior ministry to someone else to save it’s standing.

      The JI leader alleged that Karachi target killing and Lahore bombings were carried out by Blackwater. The Interior Minister was supervising all the activities of Blackwater across the country, he said."

      So lets say, hypothetically, that Rehman malik is actually supporting Backwater activities in Pakistan, so the worst punishment his political opponents can come up with is for him to be removed from his position. What purpose does such rhetoric serve? How does that help to make our fellow citizens feel more secure?

    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Hasan advised the ruling PPP to give the portfolio of interior ministry to someone else to save it’s standing. The JI leader alleged that Karachi target killing and Lahore bombings were carried out by Blackwater.


      Yes Rehman Malik [Fed. Interior Minister] and Rana Sanaullah [Law Minister Punjab] should both be sacked and Mr. Munawwar Hasan should also oblige Pakistanis to explain the purpose of the visit to the USA undertaken by the then CM NWFP, Akram Khan [2002 – 2007 ALLY OF JI IN MMA] – Judge not lest ye be Judged because he was given a detailed tour of Pentagon and Department of Defence and Islam is not practiced in those Dark Places which are controlled by Neocons. I wonder what Mr. Munawwar has to say about that visit: US Elections: Republicans or Democrats.
      http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/us-elect… [read the CV as well]

    3. khalid humayun Avatar

      Rebuttal to Mr. Nadir:

      First of all let me say "opiniated" articles receive "opiniated" comments and responses and one should not expect the otherwise.

      Secondly, why give weight to JI Chief statement. He starts with "down with America" and ends with the same slogan, no more no less. It is better to use our own common sense and shun away deciding matters on others saying. I am not an admirer of PPP, but that does not mean because I do not like them this is the best chance to ask for resignations. Would that serve the purpose? I do not think so. Alright, Rahman Malik is removed from the scene, then who? Any suggestions? Any alternative? No! None I find in here. Criticism is only valid if it is associated with suggestion/s. Perhaps we do not have that notion in Pakistan. About Blackwater (Xe), I do not comment on fictions. The aliens fixing the time bombs on crowded places and nobody witnessing the same and then hiding back in the embassy precinct, just does not enter into my mind. If we remain detracted we will never find out the real culprits.

  14. Nadir El Edroos Avatar
    Nadir El Edroos

    Dear Mr Humayun, I totally agree with you, what ever you said is exactly what I am getting at. The JI post was just an illustration of as you say "If Rehman Malik is removed from the scene, then who? Any suggestions" I completely agree with you – I dont see how you could have interpreted otherwise, its exactly what I am trying to say.

  15. khalid humayun Avatar

    Thanks for your reply Nadir saheb. After reading your comment/post one more time, I am sorry I misunderstood. At the outset you have the same feelings of pain for this country as I am feeling. Once again accept my apology.

    When comments were being made at the start the stature of founder of this nation, Mohammad Ali Jinnah came into discussion, something about his ex-wife and daughter being zoarastrian. It is true, but that doesn't make even a slightest dent to his greatness. Sarah Churchill, daughter of Winston Churchill (the British Prime Minister that won the World War II for his nation)was a junky. She was booked many a times for driving the car under extreme intoxicated condition which is a big crime in Britain. Brits still adore Churchill. However, I have a question for all those who were debating Quaid-e-Azam's relatives. Why don't you all ask Dr. Shahid Masood whether Quaid-e-Azam was a Zoarastrian (Parsi) or not? He has said so to one of the eminent free-lance journalists (I have forgotten her name but her article about the same is shining on web and Dr. Masood doesn't appear to have denied the version).

    1. Nazia Avatar

      You didnt read comment carefully

      It is none of my concern that to which religion she belongs or what ways they had opted in love and in revenge of a man.

      Here the irresponsible attitude of a man Jinnah is being discussed.

      Man is known for his courage and support to his love ones.

      Those who left their responsibilities at difficult and stranded time of their love ones are known as coward men.

      Ruti blindly loved Jinnah and came to his religion against the wishes of her influential and rich family.

      Right or wrong,if we ignore it then all she did for Jinnah only

      It was the duty of Jinnah to kept her happy , protected and under his love as it was an extraordinary or we can say an emotional sacrifice a person can make for showing his/her love to lovers.

      But she was ignored and died an early age.

      I am not sure but I read that she took the high dose of poison in depression,It was same potion which she regularly took for keeping her skin charming and beautiful.

      Churchill was leader of an educated nation and different society where kids have no liability to their father after specific age

      On the other hand Jinnah was representing the deprived and orthodox nation of subcontinent and he demanded this partition on the basis of religion.So if he couldnt care for a Muslim convert lady and even couldn't win the heart of her only child.

      Our culture has serious weakness that we mostly ignore the qualities of our leaders or heroes and trying to project them as an ideal man.That is why people like you enjoy lot of heroic characters in our history pages.

      Parsi what ever religious belief they differ from Islam but considered a very docile and submissive class in subcontinent.Lahore was once ruled by seven Madan intellectual sisters who showed an excellent example of character ,attitude and educational expertise in major institutes of lahore.

      Why I ask anything from your behalf to Dr shahid masood.He is more closer to you so you can have this task without any problem or sent him mail thru geo.


  16. khalid humayun Avatar

    So much of an anger Nazia? My point of view was only this that Quaid-e-Azam as a family man DID fail (I do not defend him as a family man for his short comings as discussed in this forum)but as his political achievments he is our hero. I totally agree with what you have said in your last post. At least as a free citizen I have a right to love him come what may. If you look his deeds as a political leader and ignore his social failure, you will also love him. For a greater cause he spoiled his own social life, that also goes to his credit.

  17. Nazia Avatar


    where is hint of anger in my lengthy post?

    I thought you misunderstood my point of view therefore tried to help you.

    As a Muslim I strongly believe that our whole life including professional , social and family life should be synchronized with same kind of balanced attitude.

    That is what Islam says and Holy Prophet also proved through His acts that family life should reflect teachings of preaching .

    It doesn't matter relation and people leave you in line of duty but it matters in which circumstances they left you.

    Broken relations have always strong backgrounds of emotions and it can be managed with sincerity and need special consideration so that mistakes can be avoided.Her daughter's loathsome attitude for him again showed serious flaws in his personality.

    Life partners and family members are best support in hectic social,poltical and professional life and for this purpose you need only good understanding and little little compromises and that all.

    If it was ordinary marriage then really it didn't matter and we think like that as you are saying that his responsibility toward state was reason of failure.But she was special convert Muslim wife and needed special care from a mature man like him.

    if he couldnt had maintained long term relation he shouldn't had encouraged her for this kind of relation.

    by the way he was very social in his elite group of his age group and that had annoyed his wife too.

    He is your hero that is great but others have their parameters to judge heroes.I think he was lucky one to get the opportunity of leading one part of already divided nation on the basis of religion.

  18. khalid humayun Avatar

    Nazia I respect your sentiments and value your points of view as long as family matters are concerned. The sites where I write articles the only channel that I did not dare to enter was 'family relations' only because I do not consider myself authority on this subject. I do not write articles unless I feel I have gained sufficient knowledge on the subject. Period. However, from reasoning perspective a question lurks in my mind, "where was she when Jinnah needed her most i.e. when Muslim League was struggling in the two nations theory movement?" Hillary Clinton still remained solid behind Bill Clinton when he was saying on TV "I am sorry" on Monica Lewinsky affair. She still is. Forgiving on man's faults is perhaps one of the most beautiful things that a woman possesses, no matter how much pains she sustains.

    In praise of Mr. Aamir Mughal:

    He always forwards his points of view with citations and links and as such it becomes really difficult for those who have different point of view. Kudos to you Aamir.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Thanks Khalid Sahab,

      Let me share an experience Way back in 90s [to be precise in 1994/95] when I was in government service [Dismemberment of Pakistan and maps/theory like Armed Forces Journal were indeed discussed in concerned quarters. Basically it was a thesis/book by Dr Abul Maali Syed’s The Twin era of Pakistan: Democracy and Dictatorship. Written in 1992, the book predicts an independent Balochistan in 2006. Dr Syed begins his book by saying ‘Who would have believed that Balochistan, once the least populated and poorest province of Pakistan, would become independent and the third richest oil-producing country after Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.’ This may not be a serious venture, but it should be nevertheless worrying especially if one reads it along with the US National Intelligence Committee that spoke of Pakistan as a failed State in 2015.

      Let me share a text from a Diplomatic Gathering.


      Excerpts from a Diplomatic Gathering in 80s

      “”The Soviet Foreign Minister, Gromyko, speaking in New Delhi on February 12, 1980 had warned that, “If Pakistan continues to serve as a puppet of imperialism in the future; it will jeopardize its existence and its integrity as an independent state.” The United States, too, could in certain circumstances accept the dismemberment of Pakistan as it did in 1971. Henry Kissinger, the US Secretary of State during President Nixon’s administration, had said: “In my conversation with Ambassador Jha I reiterated my constant theme that we considered Indian and American long term interests as congruent …. I emphasized that the United States did not insist that East Bengal remain part of Pakistan. On the contrary, we accepted autonomy as inevitable and independence as possible. A war was senseless; Bangladesh would come into being by the spring of 1972 if present procedures were given a chance. We differed over method, not aim.”On October 7, I told WSAG meeting that if India would accept an evolutionary process, it would achieve most of its objectives with our assistance. If they would co-operate with us we could work out 90 per cent of their problems, like releasing Mujib or attaining some degree of autonomy for Bangladesh, and these steps would lead eventually to their getting it all.” With the return of a Republican administration and keeping United States global interests in mind, it would be prudent to assume that should the US interests in the future be better served by sacrificing Pakistan or a part of it, Henry Kissinger’s successors would not hesitate to do so. Pakistan must, therefore, strive to keep itself together by weakening those forces that are pulling it apart and this cannot be done by force of arms. The use of strong arm methods has shown that the situation did not, to say the least, improve.”


    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      In 1916, Jinnah defended Tilak when he was charged with sedition, ultimately securing his acquittal. Initially, Noorani explained, Tilak had wanted to fight the case with a political spin, but Jinnah insisted that the defence proceed on legal grounds alone. Once the case was over, Jinnah also facilitated Tilak’s reentry into the Congress party and became his partner in the signing of the historic Lucknow Pact the same year. In the liveliest parts of his talk, Noorani described the unlikely relationship between Tilak and Jinnah — one a “man of the masses”, the other a “club goer.” The two would meet every other day in bazaars, cloth markets, and at Shantaram Chawl, where public meetings were often held. Indeed, Noorani argued that this friendship was one of the cornerstones of Hindu-Muslim unity in the pre-Partition era. Jinnah, Tilak and Indian independence movement By Huma Yusuf Wednesday, 17 Mar, 2010

  19. Nazia Avatar


    If you are an Asian and being Pakistani I don't know how you are unaware of depth of family relations as this is our strong area wherever you live in Pakistan.

    You are trying to provoke me on such sensitive areas of Jinnah which I try my best to avoid but if you are unaware then lets discuss it.

    Why in thousands women around jinnah as an 40 year adult he picked the 17 year most beautiful, and elite background, non Muslim lady?

    If he said he was in love then again he couldnt managed his love for more than six months of his marriage for his lover.

    That was his weak part not that lady who discarded her strong loving family only under his guidance and support.

    When we are in committed jobs/ duties we gather or prefer to take those people around us who have same intensity of understanding of our goals or you can say same mental appraoch.

    Age matching is always preferred in grouping friends and life partners for carry on particular goals of life and Jinnah ignored this important reality as He was in not in need of such mature relations for deciding two nation theory.

    There was not single fact found in history pages about ruti that she was insincere or crook nature.

    "No I give you another example of true love story from histroy pages

    " George V's elder brother ascended the throne as Edward VIII on the death of their father in 1936. However, less than a year later Edward revealed his desire to marry the twice-divorced American socialite Wallis Simpson. For political and religious reasons, the British Prime Minister, Stanley Baldwin, advised Edward that he could not marry Mrs. Simpson and remain king. So, Edward abdicated in order to marry a divorcee lady wihtout giving a second thought to wordy desire of ruling the strongest monarch of that era".

    Another love story you told is about Hillary and Clinton wWhere hillary covered weakness of her weak partner at the weak moments of clinton's life.

    So compatibility of age does matter in love affairs and in such abnormal marriages where young brides are picked by influential men comes in the circle of lust for fulfilling erotic demands.

  20. khalid humayun Avatar

    I did my best to avoid an argument on family matters, but since Nazia you insist, let us do it.

    First of all my question remains unaddressed i.e. "where was she when Jinnah needed her most in the Two Nations movement?" She was nowhere there. Is that love you are talking about? Perhaps you do not know anything about love. She should have been with Jinnah under any circumstances. If any one has to blame the real cause of this breakage it is HER and not Jinnah. And was it a business contract from her side to get the most successful lawyer in her embrace and when things did not occur her way she got separation and back as Zoarastrian. Was religion Islam a joke (God forbid) for her. You are repeatedly arguing the love, is this love? This is not love in my dictionary. At the best it is "This is my life". Sorry to say I have no sympathy with this lady. You are talking about "asian" and "muslim", is this the definition of a muslim lady? You are talking about commitment and dedication. Is this the commitment to leave your companion in the hour of struggle? I am at a loss as to what is your point. Unless I get the answers of these questions, I am not convinced. Sorry.

    Thank you Amir for providing me yet another valuable documents to ponder. You are simply great.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Khalid Sahab,

      What a crude joke with the unfortunate Muslim community of Indo-Pak whose "Quaid" Jinnah couldn't speak the National Language, appointed Non-Muslims on Key Posts and lead a community which was "Mullah" at heart.

  21. Nazia Avatar


    Dont be at loss as you are intentionally missing my points which are very clear

    Age difference and her pampered background was clear to Jinnah when he started dating with her.

    Why you are scared to accept that Jinnah cheated that young lady through his cleverness?

    She was an immature lady that is why she made choice of him, other wise there were more appropriate matches available to her as she was very beautiful and had very rich background .

    For handling a child you have to come to his/her mental level and no way underage kids can reach the mental level and experience of middle age people.

    In case of such unmatched marriages, only mature partners can handle difficult situation and six month is very early time to create good life among any couple so responsibility was on Jinnah's shoulders as her family had already discarded her due to her wrong choice.

    So Jinnah expectation of her cooperation (if it was) from her was quite ridiculous as her depressive life and early death clearly showed her extreme hurt feeling which she received from her successful lover and failed husband.

    Any how I cant depict the actual feelings of men before doing such love affairs and you people can explain better than me.

    if Mughal or you are in mood of volunteer himself to be placed in Jinnah's situation then we can grill you or him that what should be job of mature man as an ideal husband to handle the young teenager wife for good and happy married life.

    I have no doubt that wife and husband should stand side by side in all difficulties of life but it mostly depends on which grounds and conditions you have developed your relation.Married life is more tough than any ideal perception and it is always vulnerable to all kind of unfaithful acts and conspiracy theories than any other relations which a normal human possess in his only life.

  22. Nazia Avatar


    There is no deep rooted conspiracy theories in my clear point of views .

    Age difference and pampered nature of immature lady from elite background were the real factors of failure of such unmatched marriages.

    In such cases of huge marriage differences it is job of mature and aged person to handle the situation with patience before and after doing such blunders.

    Few months are very early to get the things on track even after normal marriages and surely that kind of abnormal marriage was in need of more time and effort from mature side.

    She was foolish it was proved because she selected a wrong man who could tn sustain this relation for more than few months.

    Her early death and living lonely without her family was clear indication that she was in shock and couldn't recover herself keading her death at so young age.

    Why are you people are afraid to accept that Jinnah cheated her through his clever skills and let her alone knowing very well that she couldnt be acceptable to her parsi family again.

    I can not interpret exact feeling of a man but if you or Mughal volunteer yourself on the place of jinnah then I can grill you and him that what should a mature and aged men do after felling in love and marrying to a young rebellious wife.What are important steps one should taken to balance between a new life and extreme political or professional responsibilities.

    Married life is more tough than perception as it can be vulnerable to all kind of insecurities and conspiracy theories which arise when partners loosing trust on each other after strong expectation.

    Life partners are meant to stand by each other at all difficult time but it depends on which ground and conditions you develop your relations.

    In Islam marriage is a contract between two and that is why different conditions as per demand of any partner are applied before marriage and that hardly appears in other religions .This is meant to convert the love factor into responsibility and care for each other which is more long lasting than temporary fever of unconditional love.

    So non Muslims can ignore of such facts but no way a Muslim lawyer denied such reality of Islam.

  23. khalid humayun Avatar

    My question still remains unanswered. You are discussing marriage contract so where were those obligations when she got separation from Jinnah. She got separated due her shocking condition??? You are telling us as if you were eye witness of the event. At the best your sources must be one side of the story. Just search the audi artem partem (hear the other side). Jinnah didn't marry her on gun point.

    And why should I sympathesize with that lady who not only left Jinnah on flimsy matter but changed her religion one more time. Let me tell you my own experience. I have a long associations with zorastrian people. They are beautiful, kind hearted and very considerate. My ex was a parsi. My best friend was a parsi girl, she and her family migrated to Australia. But before departure she caused my promotion in my job. I will always remain indebted to her. But five fingers are not the same. There was that lady of Jinnah that betrayed him. Alas, she was nowhere when Jinnah needed her most. The main topic of this thread is 'perception'. The only perception she had was "This is my life". Period.

  24. Nazia Avatar


    Your questions are unanswered as you are not in mood of hearing the truth as reality.

    No way I am so antique that I WAS present at that time but results of such abnormal marriages are very obvious to all mature persons and in this case Jinnah was the maturate person in this relation.

    Men can bring his wife from red light area but long term relation comes only in fate of sincere and courageous man who can present the unprotected lady through his power of trust,attention and love.When woman cant receive such passions at early stage, cracks start appearing in the relation.

    Such balance of affection is different in case of normal or arrange marriages which Jinnah surely didnt have like that.

    I am quite sure that what is demand of such teenager girl from her lover and husband and it is more immature acts than any responsible attitude.

    It is great to hear that your ex wife was parsi.

    At least you know the parsi community much better than me and I have same feelings about them as you describe.

    I fully hope that you wouldn't have treated and ignored her like Jinnah did to his lover and ex wife too.

    One thing I told you that making friendship is different matter and making relation in different religious community is quite different phenomena and most of time it is failed if couples or any partner has influential family.

    This difference is more prominent when the brought up time of kids have come ahead as male wants his dominance but natural inclination of women toward its belief created lot of friction in normal married life.

    Any how if both have capacity of maximum compromises then normal life can be attained but my observation is not very positive at least in our orthodox society.

    Jinnah irresponsible attitude was obvious as his daughter showed same hatred sentiments for him and never wanted to even use name of his father for any inheritance deal.

    she never visited her single aunt Fatima Jinnah while she was alone after death of Jinnah.

  25. Nazia Avatar


    Your questions are unanswered as you are not in mood of hearing the truth as reality.

    No way I am so antique that I WAS present at that time but results of such abnormal marriages are very obvious to all mature persons and in this case Jinnah was the maturate person in this relation.

    Man can bring his wife from red light area but long term relation comes only in fate of sincere and courageous man who can present the unprotected lady in this harsh world through his power of trust,attention and love.When woman dont receive such passions at early stage, cracks start appearing in the relation.

    Such balance of affection is different in case of normal or arrange marriages which Jinnah surely didnt have like that.

    I am quite aware that what is demand of such teenager girl from her lover and husband and it is more immature acts than any responsible attitude.

    It is great to hear that your ex wife was parsi.

    At least you know the parsi community much better than me and I have same feelings about them as you describe.

    I fully hope that you wouldn’t have treated and ignored her like Jinnah did to his lover and ex wife too.

    One thing I told you that making friendship is different matter and making relation in different religious community is quite different phenomena and most of time it is failed if couples or any partner has influential family.

    This difference is more prominent when the brought up time of kids have come ahead as male wants his dominance but natural inclination of women toward its belief created lot of friction in normal married life.

    Any how if both have capacity of maximum compromises then normal life can be attained but my observation is not very positive at least in our orthodox society.

    Jinnah irresponsible attitude was obvious as his daughter showed same hatred sentiments for him and never wanted to even use name of his father for any inheritance deal.

    she never visited her single aunt Fatima Jinnah while she was alone after death of Jinnah.

  26. khalid humayun Avatar

    Nazia! I take it that you are discussing a family issue and your whole emphasis is on that point only, while we know (and adore) Jinnah as a leader who was pivotal in the creation of Pakistan. Where your grievance ends our gratitude starts. Or look at the debate in the perspective that we are like two parallel lines that would never meet at any given point. A marriage that did not sustain the differences and ended up in a sad separation. We daily read such stories in "dailies". We are not concerned what Jinnah did to her. We are not concerned what she did to him either. We know Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the Quaid-e-Azam, for what he did for us.

    Dr. Jawwwad:

    You said in your comment that we knew for sure that Black Water is activated and doin terrorist activities in Pakistan. Neither you have the proof of their presence nor do I have the proof for their absence. At such a situation, logic talks. Perhaps you were commenting recent ten blasts in Lahore. I don't talk on Blackwater (Xe. Inc.) because I am not sure of their presence. Please let me know how these aliens came out of their hideouts, fixed explosives in crowded places, then retreated to US Embassy precincts and nobody noticed the same. We have more than 800,000 highly professional soldiers supported by powerful Air Force and Navy, we have our highly qualified Intelligence, and we are being harassed by media and people like you on the activities of hand picked Blackwater culprits. Doesn't this look fiction and ridiculous? Only few common persons know about Blackwater's presence and Pak Army and ISI do not know??

  27. Nazia Avatar


    That is my point where I am trying to bring you

    that wrong perception, false images and distorted history has been taught to us since the creation of Pakistan.

    That is basic reason of unrealistic,hypocrisy and unpractical attitude of our nation.

    Do you think Gen niazi, sikander mirza, fazla ellahi and zardari and many more have such capability or deserve to take the high post in national platform which was also once assigned to Jinnah and it was to lead the nation.

    As Long I was in my student life I accept the leadership qualities as you described about Jinnah.

    You know why I developed suspicion about our past leadership as I have been watching the practical lives of many family members and leaders of Pakistan's movement mostly living in Punjab areas for long time as neighbor, family friends and associates in social circles,

    They are passing very different lives as it was written in our history pages.

    They are passing double and triple standards and I call them top opportunists of Pakistan.

    Nation after creation always shows maximum trends for nation building and this way prove their stance of demands of separate homeland.

    But nothing was seen in creation of Pakistan that is why I made little research about our leadership and found lot of flaws in the personalities of our leaders.

    That is what we are discussing here.

    it was not an ordinary marriage but marriage of leader who was leading separation of a country on the basis of religion.

    The person cant hide its weakness from his parent, spouse and adult siblings and they can judge his merits and demerits in much better way then outsiders or colleagues.

    So his failed family life in all ways tells us that he might be good professional or perhaps opportunists who had some unseen agendas which is still unable to reach after passing 62 years of experiments.

    Islam was and is now considered as problem any where in the world as Muslims all over the world ready to live there where they have got better economic opportunities.

    Our forefathers living in Hindu Muslims/sikhs society had no bitterness about their nearby people before partition and I found that they are still more liberal and absorbent than the class coming out of our tableeghi jammat.

  28. khalid humayun Avatar

    In spite of very well written in put, the comment lacks the substance. Jinnah's failue in family matters does not in any way dent his political stature. Jinnah is gone and that lady is gone as well, but we have Pakistan. Bad or good Pakistan is the result of our deeds. Jinnah can not be blamed for our short falls.

    You have said we were fine and peaceful in undivided India. Well, I was born in Pakistan but my forefathers migrated from India. In my college vacation I happened to visit my relatives in India. At that point in time I had the same perception that you have said. But, when I observed on Indian railway stations two taps of water denoting above them "Hindu Water" and "Muslim Water" my perception evaporated in thin air. Two nations theory is still shining right on the land of India.

    1. Nazia Avatar


      You were just afraid of seeing just taps tagged as Hindu or Muslims.

      Come and I will take you in many houses in islamic republic where there is clear demarcation of utensil are being applied for their Hindu and Christan community.

      I can take you strong houses of our representatives were their peasants and lower class still has no courage to sit beside then and even few of them are use to of regular bowing down during their piri fiqairi annual gathering.

      If you are more interested then I will take you mosques of sunni, alhadees, shia ahle bait etc where no other sect are interested to say their routine prayers.

      If you have time I can take you lecture places of our popular islamic clerics and you would sense the height of hatred sentiments for other sects of Islam.Even shias and qadiyanis have been declared eligible to kill in our Islamic republic of Pakistan.

      If you are not interested in visiting such places with me just go to utube and see the beheading and suicidal teams of jihads doing service to Islamic jihad.

      They are chopping the heads and mutilating the bodies of fellow Muslims by saying Allah o akbar in this COUNTRY which is made for Muslims.

      If you have courage to face the reality get the data how many people have been killed for personal revenge using cover of blasphemy law .

      There is no harm if you know how much killings and terrorism activities have been made in mosques located in Paksitan.

      You can also view the way we are having our eid prayers and other religious congregation and it is under the protection of armed men and arms

      I fully hope your forefathers in India have never heard such horrible stories of humanity before initializing ideas of two nation theory in India.

    2. dr jawwad khan Avatar

      @ Nazia!

      you are really good!

      Khalid! Why don't say loud and clear that it is not about "hindu pani/ muslim pani" it is about state policy.

      Did you ever saw the humonids carrying swords, iron rods and petrol destroying torching the houses and shops, tearing the small innocent kids apart with their swords and knives,chasing young women and raping them on main road and grounds while whole crowd including policemen enjoying the live show.killing the chaste muslim women through repeated and bruital rape and burning their bodies.

      Did you ever saw in pakistan?

      did you ever saw the shias and qadiyanis being targeted in their education, govt service or sports?

      did you ever saw the demolition of shia's imam barha or qadiyani's churches?

      more than 7 years have been passed of messacre of 2000 muslim men,women and children. Did you saw any conviction?

      did you saw indian govt saying, ok! those were religious fanatics…we apologize and rebuild the babri mosque? did you?

      did you ever read "Rajendra Sucher commission report"?

      its all about the state policy.

      say khalid! say it loud and clear!

      say that, "Nazia don't try to sell us your liberal's stinky shit.

  29. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    we are being harassed by media and people like you on the activities of hand picked Blackwater culprits. Doesn’t this look fiction and ridiculous?Only few common persons know about Blackwater’s presence and Pak Army and ISI do not know??


    🙂 don't you guys read the newspaper or watch the television?

    The question is not about their presence.They are here since many years some say about 5 years. Assigned and stationed for target killing of Alquida people and taliban commonders.

    Question is why such a media hype now?

    Because pakistani intelligence agencies noticed a fundamental shift in the roll of blackwater as they see the blackwater started working independently, building the contacts inside and across the borders. May be intelligence agencies have some evidence or information which relates the blackwater roll in rise in terrorism inside pakistan.

    They cant stop them because our generals lick their boots so they started feeding the media and suddenly reports started coming about their presence.


    yes. i am reading your conversation with nazia…and i found some interesting observation which i share on correct time.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      May be intelligence agencies have some evidence or information which relates the blackwater roll in rise in terrorism inside pakistan.


      US official under probe for setting up spy network

      Tuesday, 16 Mar, 2010 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-

  30. khalid humayun Avatar

    Thank you Mughal for providing the Dawn News clip. It is about one, Michael D. Furlong who has been awarded $:22 Million contract by US Defence Department to gather uptodate information and cultural heritage of Afghanistan. He hired nine employees of International Media Ventures to collect the movements of militants that helped tracking and making drone attacks. This part of act was not in Furlong's contract and he is being investigated by State Department as to why he violated the contract. Blackwater (Xe Inc.) is nowhere in the story.

    Any how, thank you Mughal once again, for providing this valuable piece of information.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Dear Khalid Sahab,

      Complete background is as under:

      From left: Michael D. Furlong, the official who was said to have hired private contractors to track militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan; Robert Young Pelton, a contractor; Duane Clarridge, a former C.I.A. official; and Eason Jordan, a former television news executive. Contractors Tied to Effort to Track and Kill Militants By DEXTER FILKINS and MARK MAZZETTI Published: March 14, 2010 A version of this article appeared in print on March 15, 2010, on page A1 of the New York edition. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/world/asia/15co

  31. Nazia Avatar

    Oh dr shahib thanks or your provoking encouragement.

    Why are you giving vitamin of power to "khalid" for rebutting me.

    You can help yourself for this major cause.

    Neither I deal in stinky shits nor you are customer of such valuables.

    Oh you said that being a Pakistani we never see anything as you find only in India.

    From pages of near past even you can ask children of Swat that what kind of heinous scenes they have witnessed in the name of forced Islam.Men were butchered by chopping their heads, tearing their stomach in front of their children and then body was hanged on tree or in lash chowk for days .

    Young girls and boys were taken away from their parents house and kept in caves of swat as sex slaves in custody of muslims called themselves as talibans.

    For judging the intensity of our love for Islam and its teaching you can read it our latest version of becoming true muslim in Islamic republic of Pakistan


    If you want to go to old past you can have many stories of raping Muslim Bengail women by sherjawan of our army in 1971.Human massacre of poor Bengalis by Pakistani Muslim army has been recorded in all international forums.

    Mukthuran mai like many women are daily raping and then killing by our brave Muslim men of our society.

    What our army is doing in waziristan borders and what hidden hands of so called extremist Muslims in our urban areas are crystal clear to whole world.

    You can hide one or two blast but 1o blasts in one day with 60 causalities and hundreds injured is only possible in Pakistan a true ISLAMIC STATE.

    Try to meet the victims of any blasts or any person affected first by overpowering of talibans and them forceful operation of miltiary on their area.

    He would tell you real life of a muslim family in Pakistan.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      What our army is doing in waziristan borders and what hidden hands of so called extremist Muslims in our urban areas are crystal clear to whole world.


      The headline read like something you might see in the conspiracy-minded Pakistani press: "Contractors Tied to Effort to Track and Kill Militants." But the story appeared in Monday's New York Times, and it highlighted some big problems that have developed in the murky area between military and intelligence activities. Outsourcing intelligence By David Ignatius Wednesday, March 17, 2010

  32. khalid humayun Avatar

    Nazia what you propagating is true but it is not bone of contention here. Quaid-e-Azam demanded a separate land on Two Nations Theory. Congress specially and Hindus generally opposed it with the stance that there was no existence of Two nations in the subcontinent. The flames erupted in all parts of India. Doctor saheb has just revisited those horrible Hindu-Muslim riots. What you are talking about swat, wana and south waziristan is out of context here, it requires another thread for discussion. We are discussing Jinnah's Two Nation Theory and not War against Terrorism.

    And Nazia in the heat of arguments you are a little harsh. Please be polite.

    Doctor saheb your explanation about blackwater presence in NWFP sounds logical. There is every possibility, if they are there they might sneak in our urban areas. However, I still think that recent Lahore blasts were not their clandestine activity. These bombs might have been fixed by our local terrorists that is why it remained unnoticed by the people of those localities.

    1. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Hindus generally opposed it with the stance that there was no existence of Two nations in the subcontinent.


      Dear Khalid Sahab,

      Late. Hussain Ahmed Madni [Daarul Uloom Deoband] had said that Hindu and Muslim are one nation [he was Pro Indian National Congress] and this was re-published in an Indian Muslim Newspaper/gazette


      He insisted, arguing against the claims of both the Muslim League and the Hindu Mahasabha (which, too, subscribed to a ‘two nation’ theory of its own version), that all the inhabitants of India were members of a ‘united nationality’ (muttahida qaumiyat) despite their religious and other differences. Hence, he argued, Muslims, Hindus and others must join hands to work for an independent, united India, where all communities would enjoy equal rights and freedoms.


      REF: The 'United Nationalism' of Maulana Madni – i By Yoginder Sikand Dated Published in the 1-15 Aug 2004 print edition of MG http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/01-15Au

      The ‘United Nationalism’ of Maulana Madni-ii By Yoginder Sikand Dated Published in the 16-31 Aug 2004 print edition of MG http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-31Au

    2. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Khalid Sahab,

      Locals have always been used by Intelligence Agencies around the globe and if not local then the one who look local. I hope you remember Eli Cohen Affair – Eli Cohen http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biogr

  33. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    Khalid sahib!

    i didn't say that lahore bombings are carried out by blackwater.There were many eye witnesses there who actually saw make it happening.That is why in my blog i supported a negociation with taliban particularly with the refrence of Lahore bombing.

  34. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    Young girls and boys were taken away from their parents house and kept in caves of swat as sex slaves in custody of muslims called themselves as talibans.

    For judging the intensity of our love for Islam and its teaching you can read it our latest version of becoming true muslim in Islamic republic of Pakistan


    This is simply a non sense islamophobic rhetoric.How many suicide bombers taliban have??….3000? (many people call it an exaggeration)even if they do have 3000 then tell me how these 3000 can represent around 2 billions pakistanis?

    the columnist & Journalist like Raheemullah Yousuf zai and Saleem Safi and many others who have the authentic and first hand informations, categorize the taliban into 3 groups. Die hard islamist, criminals and foreign agents. you aren't that naive to understand that a true islamist can't use the young muslim boys and girls for sex slave.

    Regarding bengaladesh…i want to ask you one question.According to a current estimate,there are about atleast 100000 bengalis are living in karachi without any kind of harrasment from civilians or army. How did these bengalis manage to do so? Indian hindu till now is not ready to forgive 60 year old so called partition. Till now muslims are being harrased with the name of pakistan. Why don't we do it with bengalis? I am afraid that history of east pakistan is much more complicated for the liberals.

    What Pakistan army is currently doing with balochistan, can we call it athenic cleansing? Of course not ..it is matter of control and interest of pakistan army.

    BTW never rely on forign sources only. Foreign sources use specific kinds of specs to see things.If you listen the internal sources also then you get a quite different picture. you would see how heinous criimes were also committed against behari muslims by the hands of their fellow muslim bengalis….and you shall also know the events which ended in a massacre.


    I am a fundamentalist muslim i believe in jihad but i never supported the suicide bombing because it is against islam niether i support the crimes committed by pakistan army.

    1. abrar Avatar

      Dr. Jawwad,

      I read the whole column:

      and there was no mention about keeping muslim girls as sex salves.

      I guess Ms Nazia either has some proof or she was a subject of such a crime otherwise its a total buhtaan.

      These retarded liberal-facists make up stories and put them along some facts, so the naive people can be fooled into beleiving the fabricated stuff too.

      MS NAZIA, you are really sick and pathetic soul, in your hate for Muslims and Islam you can not even adhere to ethics and truth. You really are a sicko.

    2. Nazia Avatar

      Dr khan

      I am also considered as fundamentalist like you and wherever I live in Pakistan or I went in non Muslim areas I faced no problem of fulfilling my basic fundamentals of Islam.Only thing required is one's intentions to pay his/her all rituals and duties in wordily business.

      If as a muslim you know that a true muslim cant keep young boys and girls as slave then why this theme(link provided) is still followed in islamic culture(specially in influential groups) since the time of Holy Prophet.
      As talibans are distorted form of Islam, same replica of hindu fanatics who did all this what you mentioned.

      Religions all over the world are always linked with peace of mind,souls and surroundings and never ever encouraged human brutalities.

      Read the old history of hindus they were not allowed to kill a fly, they couldnt eat eggs as a life islinked with it.It was the reason ther were not allowed to eat meat as it ewas linked to killing of any God made soul.

      Even in some sects of Hindus they used to wear veils so that their sigh couldnt harm the surroundings.

      Jinnah didnt understand his any local language but he was excellent in understanding English and he only listened them.Whatever tradition was followed since that time, is still going in our soil.Foreign aliens who never visit our any problematic areas, cant speak language of locals are all time ready to occupy our top seat and after this they vanished from the scene.

      Rest of deficiency is master minded by giving western favors to our miltiary dictators.

      Quaid two nation theory was refused by strong Muslims too(also explained by Mughal)

      but as Jinnah and British were aligned to this theory so they had to support this(divide and rule)policy at all cost.
      Read carefully his words

      I must confess that the very term Pakistan goes against my grain. It suggests that some portions of the world are pure while others are impure. Such a division of territories into pure and impure is un-Islamic and is more in keeping with orthodox Brahmanism which divides men and countries into holy and unholy – a division which is a repudiation of the very spirit of Islam. Islam recognizes no such division and the prophet says, 'God has made the whole world a mosque for me.'

      Further, it seems that the scheme of Pakistan is a symbol of defeatism and has been built up on the analogy of the Jewish demand for a national home. It is a confession that Indian Muslims cannot hold their own in India as a whole and would be content to withdraw to a corner specially reserved for them."

      So what he felt at that moment is now seemingly dominating in all social,religious and political infrastructure of Pakistan.

    3. Aamir Mughal Avatar

      Rahimullah Yousufzai had also written this on Taliban 10 years ago: General Musharraf, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, Brigadier [R] Usman Khalid & Deobandi Taliban. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/02/general-

  35. Muhammad Shemyal Nis Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nis

    Just to give you another perspective regarding 1971 conflict. In a recent speech by hasina wajid to bangladeshi people she is reported to have glorified those Indians/Hindus who wore Pakistani uniform and committed atrocities in then East Pakistan. According to her Bangladeshi people can never fully thank these Indians for such support and thus a blame which Pakistan has yet not been able to get rid off.

    I am trying to find the speech. would be back as soon as I get it.

  36. Nazia Avatar


    I heard all these stories directly from IDP camps set near Hasan abdal .

    And also from NGOs working in those areas .

    Some of families who had come there were injured /shot by talibans as they refused to forcibly marriage their girl childs or giving away their sons for jihads.

    The stories of real people were unbelievable and reminded me the stories happened at the time of partition.

    From latest source you can read it

  37. Muhammad Shemyal Nis Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nis

    @ Nazia

    I think you are confusing between war-time conditions and peace time conditions.

    What is happening in Tribal area now is taking place under War conditions. While what took place babri masjid in india happened in peace time. The gujrat massacre took place in peace time. The government of India or atleast the government of state of gujrat was found heavily involved in the incident. I do not think you would find any such resemblance in Pakistan.

    As far as the condition of Indian muslims is concerned, from what I know from my first hand experience with Indian Muslims is that they live a dreadful life. I atleast can not and would not want my life to be like that. If you want to know one of my friends was from srinagar another from hyderabad and a third one from dehli. These people live their lives in fear all the time.

    As for Jinnah he himself might be British educated and stuff. but what you are forgetting is that in 1935 Jinnah had gone back to England and left India for good. At that time it was muslim league leaders who called him back and asked him to lead them.

  38. Nazia Avatar


    Fazaullah is by product of peace time of Swat and no way Swat was previously considered as hiding place or supply line for all kind insurgent supply and training.

    Recent updates of conditions of minorities can be judged through such links

    Gojra community has no ties with this war on terror.

    -Pakistan: Two Christian Teenagers Raped and Forced to Convert to Islam

    Hindus in Pakistan have no connection with war and peace of our mountains so why they are treating like that.

    More than 6,000 Pakistani Hindus migrated to India in recent months

    For the last many years we Muslims living in Lahore, Peshawar, Karachi and in swat are also passing insecure and dreadful moments in Islamic republic of Pakistan.No one knows that he or she would return back safe and sound.

    I had some qadiyani friends who migrated to Canada after receiving anonymous threats from their educational institute.

    In last two years migration rate of my family members to other destinations have been increasing due to same reason which we are facing on daily basis in this Islamic society.

    Believe me living in lahore and Islamabad is more fearful act than living in India.

  39. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    Believe me living in lahore and Islamabad is more fearful act than living in India


    you can say that because you are living in the paradise of liberal. I am sure you shall be regreted and pentinent on your comment for rest of your life after only one encounter with "shiv senic" or "bajrang dal" mad dogs.

    just have a look at these and compare with what did you presented.




    what the hell i am doing? just right the gujrat in your google search and you see what you don't wanna see. what liberals of pakistan hate to see….

  40. Muhammad Shemyal Nis Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nis

    @ Nazia

    this is ridiculous how you give reference from biased media to support your argument. As far as the guardian is concerned, if you go through the news report you would read it yourself that the government is working to provide security to the Christians and stuff. whereas in India the government of State of Gujrat was itself involved in it. This is the difference. You can not claim any place to be free of crime, but the attitude of authorities after the crime has been committed is what matters. just for example London has a higher crime rate compared to any city in Pakistan but the attitude of the authorities is what matters.

    Having been educated in a missionary school I have many Christian friends and many more qadiyani friends no one has ever complained about any thing that you just mentioned.

    Plus the atrocities towards the minorities are there in the so-called secular and free societies of the west as well. Many are times muslims are victimised and especially muslim women are victimized. So you can not take an one or two incidents and paint the whole picture.

  41. dr jawwad khan Avatar

    @Muhammad Shemyal Nisar!

    thats right… these are the cheap and disgusting tectis. If you do not find some thing real then use the third rate lies.

  42. Nazia Avatar

    Nisar and dr khan

    You are thorough liberals of this forums.

    Lets get some clips from pure Indian investigation on Gujarat riots.

    India's National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), an official body, found evidence in the killings of premeditation by members of Hindu extremist groups; complicity by Gujarat state government officials; and police inaction in the midst of attacks on Muslims. The NHRC also noted "widespread reports and allegations of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts-sometimes within view of police stations and personnel," suggesting the attacks may have been planned in advance. Christians were also victims in Gujarat, and many churches were destroyed

    Independent inquiry done by pure Hindus against BJP and modi

    In April 2002, retired supreme court justices V. R. Krishna Iyer and P. B. Sawant headed a citizen's panel to investigate the riots. Their report includes testimony of the then Gujarat Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) minister Haren Pandya (since murdered), who testified about an evening meeting convened by Narendra Modi the evening of the Godhra train burning. At this meeting, officials were instructed not to obstruct the Hindu rage following the incident. The report also highlighted a second meeting, held in Lunawada village of Panchmahal district, attended by state ministers Ashok Bhatt, and Prabhatsinh Chauhan, and other BJP and RSS leaders, where "detailed plans were made on the use of kerosene and petrol for arson and other methods of killing.

    Govt of India took actions are as followed

    Now come to Islamic republic of Pakistan. what happened to karachi people on 12 may, 27 Dec, ashura meetings or killings in Karachi,DI Khan, bajur, wana and gojra .

    have you seen any action of stateand Lawenforcing agencies during and after mass killings of Muslims.

    In gujrat riots 200 policemen lost their lives in line of duty.

    Have you seen a single justified probe of Bhutto murder even her party is controlling state matters for last 2 years?

    Think deeply and then point fingers on others.

    There should be no ideals or idols for curses and crime against humanity anywhere in the world .

  43. Muhammad Shemyal Nisar Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nisar

    @ Nazia

    You would find your answer in my earlier posts. I would not go on repeating everything all over again.

  44. Muhammad Shemyal Nisar Avatar
    Muhammad Shemyal Nisar

    @ Nazia

    As I earlier said that you are quoting war time examples. At this time the whole of state machinery is involved in a war so are bound to witness incidents of this nature where certain individuals or groups will take advantage of state machinery busy against Taliban elements. Not to mention that law enforcement agencies are way too stretched out as well.

    If you see my earlier comments I did not mention Indian atrocities in Jammu and Kashmir for the very same reason that they are war zones. I did not mention Seven Sister states that are essentially war zones as well. The thing with Pakistan is that all four provinces share some part of their border with all other provinces. Now you might argue that Sindh and NWFP dont but then the ‘buffer zone’ between them is not too large to make any effect. But in case of India the state of Kashmir is too far away from Mumbai to have any worthwhile effect.

    Secondly, the incidents that you mentioned about Pakistan are Individual events, while in Mumbai carnage Indian state machinery was involved. While the same goes for Atrocities on Christians on the eastern coast of India especially Orrisa.

    I can go on writing an essay on this topic but this is it and no more debating from here on. Whether you want to see the point or not is up to you.

  45. Nazia Avatar


    Dont bother to repeat your comment just reply my queries in my last para that where was writ of govt in anti communal and anti sect riots found in above mentioned dates.

    If you have no answer then tell me why govt in FC controlled Baluchistan is still unable to stop the 600 target killings mostly to punjabis settled there related to education field.

  46. Nazia Avatar


    I really have no interest what Indians are doing in their boundaries but I can give you clips that govt is much active than what is happening in Islamic republic of Pakistan.

    You can judge their level of investigation from another example

    On 29 September 2008, three bombs exploded in Modasa, Gujarat and Malegaon, Maharashtra killing eight persons, and injuring 80. Several unexploded bombs were found in Ahmedabad, Gujarat. Hemant Karkare, as the chief of the state Anti-Terror Squad, led the investigation into the 2008 Malegoan blasts.In late October the ATS arrested eleven suspects, and alleged that some radical Hindu groups were behind the blasts.

    To which Mumbai carnage you are telling me , Your rehman malik and gen mehmood durrani have already accepted infiltration from Pakistan side and Ajaml kasab is kept alive as an example of our ISI efforts in contributing state terrorism.

    I dont need your essay on our situation as I am witnessing all through my observation and disusing to victims of terrorism .

    You clearly swept my points and try to impose Indian atrocities as more worst what is happening in our state on the name of war on terror.

    Lets go there

    Did India ever use gun ship helicopters, her air force or Isreal's drones on Kashmiri war zone.

    we did it and still doing to our people.

    Did Indians force Kashmirs to become IDPs in India or even Pakistani side for sweeping terrorism in Kashmir.

    We created 3 million IDPs and then blast whole valley of swat now doing same thing in Waziristan.

    If you have visited Kashmir then,poor road network and naked Kashmir without trees are clearly indicating the unlawful status of Pakistani govt where as in India they have well managed their natural resources even living in war state.

    Today aggressive riots in mazzafrabad for power is again showing govt reluctance for giving any relief to Kashmiris.

    You are again wrong in hiding the state crime happened in 12 may and Ashura incident where all state control was on hands of either rangers or ruling class of Karachi.