Mumbai Under Attack & Pakistan to blame

Since last night when hell broke loose in Mumbai, I, like millions of people across the world remained in a state of shock watching the events unfold on TV, it for many may have been like a prime time blockbuster film being recorded on the streets of Mumbai, a coordinated attack in seven locations seemed to be a perfect Hollywood script but the difference here was that it was ‘real blood and real people’, not funny in the least bit. Tired and deranged of hearing the same depressing news coming out of India I gave up watching the updates late last night. A special shout out to Dina Mehta, Vani [Flickr images] & many others who were the eyes and ears for millions of people across the world, out doing the main stream media in their brief 140 character SMS messges to the twitter network, these real updates were probably the only life line the world had with Mumbai otherwise it was a ghost town with terrorists on a rampage

What has also sadly transpired within the following day is that the ‘official’ blame game circus is in full swing, contrary to my initial message where I expressed my relief that Pakistan was not being blamed since Deccan Mujahideen were taking the blame, but much to my dismay the good news [?] was short lived and very soon the Indian government was livid at the Pakistani intelligence agencies for having masterminded this attack, in all honesty it might even had been the ISI [ironically we cant trust them either] but whosoever created the mess, Indian or Pakistanis it must be condemned at all costs.

What worries me now is that the mess that we just saw in Mumbai in the last few hours literally pales in comparison of what might be brewing up in Karachi now, tensions between the few ethnic groups have reached an unimaginable and dangerous proportions and I, like many Karachitties, worry that if God Forbid such an incident were to happen its going to be far worse then Mumbai and then do we conveniently point fingers back to India, [which I feel our bureaucracy will do anyway].

Hence you realize the dilemma, the finger pointing session has a tendency to continue endlessly with no probable solution and the terrorists will continue to terrorize us all and make our lives miserable while each side will continue to deliberately fuel the rouge elements to seek revenge. I feel, like educated people, its time that we must work together, the borders between the two countries must disappear, the people must join hands and stand up together, no more Indian, no more Pakistani, quite simply we must join hands for the sake of humanity and say STOP

As a Pakistani I genuinely sit down and pray for the well being of each and every Indian who may have suffered on 26th November and hope that you have the courage to rebuild Mumbai from this disaster, Mumbai is bound to rebound and I hope it rebounds to achieve far greater heights then every before. Living in Karachi we too have been through one too many similar disasters and it is the resolve and commitment of the citizens that bring life back into the ciry, each citizen pitches in to pick up the ashes, help the wounded and nudge the city back into existence. Bottom lins is that the finger pointing session has to stop as unsurprisingly it has never led to any solution.

Mumbai I must assure you despite our differences many peace loving Pakistanis have shed a tear with you on the 26th our heart bleeds with you lets do join hands and shoulder each other back to life. Build bridges, Mumbai we are with you all the way






154 responses to “Mumbai Under Attack & Pakistan to blame”

  1. Indian Avatar

    There are a few things which remain unanswered but time will tell who was behind these attacks….However I would like to ask a few questions about the following

    1)Choice of targets:
    – Who would benefit from targetting foreigners, high profile business men/executives?
    – Was it a message to the western world? What was the message that seems to be getting conveyed- India isn’t safe for you? Go back?
    – If so, in whose backyard is one of the most vile, obnoxious and militant outfit prospering?
    – Why was Nariman house chosen? Why are the bodies of the Jewish victims the worst tortured?
    – Who has a history of animosity with the Jews?
    – If it was perpetrated by Hindu right wing- Why didn’t they target Haji Ali, Grant Road or Mahim? Their supposed targets have always been Muslims or Christian missionaries not foreigners!
    – They don’t have anything to gain out of framing Pakistan- Coz their message is pretty clear- don’t suppress the majority by pandering to the minorities..No matter how I look at the events that just doesn’t seem to come across

    2) Timing of attack:
    – If the idea was to cause maximum damage why did the attacks start at 10:00 PM and not at 6:00-7:00PM IST (which is peak time)?
    – was it a “convenient” coincidence that it was timely enough for the western media to pick it up?

    3) Sophistication of attacks:
    – Would the likes of Lt Purohit have access to Sat phones, marine training, latest weapons and gadgets which Mumbai police doesn’t seem to have? Media raised a huge hue and cry about the inadequacy of the equipment with our forces
    – Even if they had access to all the money in the world where were these 10 bastards trained? Only a few countries come to mind which house terrorist training schools!

    4) Identity of the terrorists
    – Fidayeen, Jihad are well revered concepts in Islam…In Hinduism its believed that anyone who dies an untimely death is destined to remain in between worlds and never passes on…so even if the Hindu right wing tried to recruit people to carry out such attacks- there would be very few takers!
    – With a population of 1 billion+ and ~70% Hindus why did the right wing have to import people from Karachi in Pakistan?
    Something just doesn’t add up!

    4) History
    – Attacks on Akshardham, Indian Parliament, Bombay Bomb blasts of ’93 are a few examples of heinous acts carried out by Pakistani residents and/or Pakistan based outfits

    No one is saying that the Pakistani Government is directly involved in this attack, Pakistani National-Yes; Pakistan based Outfits- resounding Yes!

    So I would much rather believe my Govt when it points fingers at Pakistan rather than the commentators in this forum- because even with my basic logical reasoning the evidence is highly stacked against Pakistan!

  2. Indian Avatar

    A Letter To The Last Standing Terrorist
    Written by Mohib Ahmad · November 28, 2008 · 2,166 views (15 votes, average: 4.53 out of 5)
    Loading …
    Last Standing Terrorist,

    I hope you get to read this letter at the gates of hell where your fellow murderers are awaiting you. I would love to see the look at your face when you will be told that you are not a martyr as your valiantly claimed on the phone call but just a cowardly murderer who killed innocent people. Talking of phone calls, whom were you trying to fool by speaking in a Punjabi/Kashmiri accent while claiming to be from Hyderabad?

    It was not surprising to see you use the oldest trick in the world, religion, as a justification of your dastardly acts. It was, however, quite ironical to see a terrorist having just killed scores of innocent people wanting to promote his religion as a religion of refuge and safety. You actually caused much more harm to the religion you claim to profess than anyone else could ever do from outside. Don’t you see that the religion you claim to be fighting for does not has space for people like you? No wonder you were panicked at the recent congregation of Islamic clerics denouncing terrorism and accused them as sell-outs.

    As for your blabber about the injustice meted out to the Indian Muslim community, well listen – we don’t want you or any of your murderous fellow thugs talking on our behalf. Babri Masjid, Gujarat, Malegaon and Kashmir are not Indian Muslim problems – these are Indian problems. And we as a nation are capable enough of resolving these issues. We might fall on our way, make mistakes or have serious disagreements but we will find solutions as a nation.

    The idea of India is too strong for terrorists like you to have any impact. It has stood the test of time over centuries and has not only survived but progressed. We will overcome this crisis as well – together.

    Meanwhile, godspeed to hell to you and good riddance!

    Mohib Ahmad

  3. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    pathetic indians with pathetic fallacies
    inspite of solving their problems they always blame their neighbors for wrong doings of their own.
    they promote genocide and ethnic cleansing and expect peace.
    pathetic indians with pathetic fallacies

  4. farrah k raja Avatar
    farrah k raja

    “No one is saying that the Pakistani Government is directly involved in this attack, Pakistani National-Yes; Pakistan based Outfits- resounding Yes!”
    first it was British of PAksitani origin,than it was Pakistanis and now
    Pakistani National-Yes; Pakistan based Outfits- resounding Yes!”

  5. Indian Avatar

    so wats the point you are making?
    if its abt the semantics..i am sorry you have lost me…

    Just to clarify..What i was saying is maybe Zardari/Geelani did not mastermind the attack..theyd be extremely foolish to do so…..but still there are terrorist organizations which are openly flourishing in Pakistan (hence Pakistani outfits)..with the govt turning a blind eye…Since thats a govt you put in office..their actions are going to get equated with the voice of Pakistan!

    The 10 terorists definitely have links to Pakistan..whether be their nationality, the training the received, the support, the resources…just looking at the facts/events without even venturing into evidence presented by our agencies-all point in one direction-Pakistan!

  6. Sajjad Avatar

    @ Indian

    You are the only one who finds your own arguments “logical.”

    Choice of targets:

    What would Pakistanis get out of targetting foreigners in India. Why would they want to send them back? Its more likely that people within India especially naxalites would attck such a group as they do not agree with the capitalist policies of India. Further as Indians like you think that Pakistanis have a problem with Indians so in that case why did they target foreigners’ residences.

    How the f*** did militant groups know that there were Jews in Nariman House? Now you will say ISI is involved. But you yourself said that Pakistan is not involved only Pakistani groups. Make up your mind! Again seems more likely that it was a group from within India.

    My dear a lot of Muslims were killed in these attcks. I think more than 50. Plus extremist groups in India have tried to frame Pakistan before as well so this is not the first time. Please read your own history!

    Timing of the attack:

    Coverage by western media would suit any group. How does this establish that the group was Pakistani?

    Sophistication of Attacks:

    Purohit had access to highly explosive RDX, the things you mentioned would have been no problem. Meri jaan you can buy satallite phones and mobiles in the market. What other “gadgets” have you found? And I think you have not read the report on the military personnel found to be involved with Hindi terrorist outfits. BAJRANG DAL EXTREMISTS WERE GIVEN ACCESS TO ABANDONED INDIAN ARMY TRAINING CAMPS.

    Identity of Terrorist:

    Jihad is well revered in Islam but targeting innocent people is strongly criticized. A vast majority of Muslims condemn the terrorist Islamic outfits. And who says the terrorists were imported from Karachi? You actually believe that crap? How did terrorists, who had just gotten of the boat, know the details of the city and even had access to the blue prints of the Hotels? Even Mr. Tata (owner of the Taj) raised this question on CNN.


    There is also history of internal terrorism in India. Why are you forgetting that?

    Your post tells me that either you are wither very young or your mind has been blocked by your emotions. Your media keeps contradicting itself and your government keeps contradicting your media. A few sane and well journalists have already criticised the role of the Indian media. Wait for the dust to settle and then make your argumets.

  7. Ashish Avatar

    Quoted from Dawn, A Pak News Paper:
    “New Delhi has not accused Islamabad’s civilian government of involvement but has expressed deep frustration that its neighbour has been unable or unwilling to prevent militants using its soil to attack Indian cities.

    ‘Even if the militants are linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting?’ Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari asked in an interview with the Financial Times.”

    Dawn said on day 1 itself, that Modus operandi of terrorists seems similar to several attacks in Pakistan and to no other attack in India.

    To add to conspiracy theories being floated, could it be related to 5-0 defeat of England team, They don’t want to go down 7-0? Could this be the reason. Let me publish it on a blog and add a link here.

  8. Indian Avatar

    “What would Pakistanis get out of targetting foreigners in India. Why would they want to send them back? It’s more likely that people within India especially naxalites would attck such a group as they do not agree with the capitalist policies of India. Further as Indians like you think that Pakistanis have a problem with Indians so in that case why did they target foreigners’ residences.”
    >>To send a message to the western population to stay out. People like Osama-bin-Laden and many other leaders of similar terrorist outfits have openly criticized the west. Some of these groups have been masterminds of similar massive scale attacks in cities like New York and London and have even taken credit for it. The Mumbai attacks seem to have drawn inspiration from those attacks.
    >> Regarding the attack being carried out by people troubed by the growing income disparities between various segments in India, I would have maybe agreed with you if only they hadn’t opened fire in CST, Mazgaon docks, Chowpatty & in taxis. All these places are not visited by the rich & mighty of India. These were regular people, going about the daily business of their lives. This attack was not directed directly at the so-called elite of India directly targeted…There are multiple records of victims/survivors saying that the terrorists asked for British and American passport holders.
    >> Nowhere have they targeted residences- foreigners or Indians as mentioned by you. All establishments targeted were public places.
    >> Today Pakistan is a failed economy- the nation is living on handouts from various agencies/countries. So who would be upset that while Pakistan has been reportedly portrayed as one of the most dangerous places in the world, your neighbor next door is the most attractive investment destination in the world and is increasingly popular on the international tourism circuit too
    >> If the idea is to harm the Indian economy and India’s image as an emerging superpower-don’t you think then these attacks make sense?

    “How the f*** did militant groups know that there were Jews in Nariman House? Now you will say ISI is involved. But you yourself said that Pakistan is not involved only Pakistani groups. Make up your mind! Again seems more likely that it was a group from within India.”
    >> Its a well known fact, that a certain section of the Indian population is sympathetic towards Pakistan/Islamic nations. From the very start it was obvious that this was not the group’s first visit to either the sites or the country. They had studied the targets very thoroughly and they definitely had local support. There are multiples possibilities through which they could have come to India earlier- through the same route they chose this time (the coastline), through the Kashmir border (where infiltration by militants from across the border is a regular occurrence), using fake passports or identities (we do give visas to Pakistani nationals) etc…Just because you have intimate knowledge of place does not mean you have to be a local to plan out such attacks. If I were to go by your argument then the Al-Qaeda could never have masterminded 9/11 coz they sit half a world away in Afghanistan. I accept that they definitely had local support- SIMI, Dawoods network, local population, god knows who!
    >> Why did the Pakistan PM first agree to send the ISI chief to India and then backtrack on the same promise? It is there for all to see who are the real masters of Pakistan…. ISI and the Army are the actual masters of Pakistan and it has been well established by the events of not the last week but the last six decades. I said the involvement of the Govt of Pakistan seems unlikely- the entire world knows that any civil govt in Pakistan has little control over the army or the ISI. So yes we are pointing fingers towards your army and the ISI.
    >> Anti-Semitism runs quite high in Islam. The middle east is a burning example of this. Do read this peace carefully

    “My dear a lot of Muslims were killed in these attcks. I think more than 50. Plus extremist groups in India have tried to frame Pakistan before as well so this is not the first time. Please read your own history!”
    >>I agree that a lot of people of various ethinicities and religious leanings were killed. Let me point you towards something – there are accounts of people being let go when they said they were Muslims.
    >> Does it sound like the actions of Hindu right wing?
    >> I have read my history. Maybe you need to stop believing the jingoism fed to you by Pakistani media. Can you point me to a reliable source from where you got the number of Muslim victims???

    Timing of the attack:
    “Coverage by western media would suit any group. How does this establish that the group was Pakistani?”
    >> For the so called home grown terror outfits their message and targets would all be local- they will derive no benefits from the coverage of these events internationally. But militant groups like Al-Qaeda, LET are known to have engineered such attacks for maximum mileage!
    Sophistication of Attacks:
    “Purohit had access to highly explosive RDX, the things you mentioned would have been no problem. Meri jaan you can buy satallite phones and mobiles in the market. What other “gadgets” have you found? And I think you have not read the report on the military personnel found to be involved with Hindi terrorist outfits. BAJRANG DAL EXTREMISTS WERE GIVEN ACCESS TO ABANDONED INDIAN ARMY TRAINING CAMPS.”
    >> I have read the report maybe you need to read it again. Till yesterday Bajrang Dal was burning villages and today they are holding people hostage, open firing in public places and blowing up structures. I know there is a learning curve but surely it cannot possibly be so steep!
    >> If the Bajrang Dal had to kill anyone it would be the Muslims then these are all the wrong targets..They would have targeted the Muslim ghettos in the metros. What benefit would they get from killing people in these locations? Also please make up your mind who perpetrated the attacks the naxalites? Or the Hindu right wing!
    >> I still reiterate India is a far more inclusive society in the world. We all know Pakistan has made it a personal agenda to worry about the Muslims in India and not caring too hoots about their own residents. India has a thriving Muslim community. The Hindu minority in Pakistan is miniscule, declining and highly oppressed – there are hardly any notable examples of any of them making it to high levels in government, sports or any other field?

    Identity of Terrorist:
    “Jihad is well revered in Islam but targeting innocent people is strongly criticized. A vast majority of Muslims condemn the terrorist Islamic outfits. And who says the terrorists were imported from Karachi? You actually believe that crap? How did terrorists, who had just gotten of the boat, know the details of the city and even had access to the blue prints of the Hotels? Even Mr. Tata (owner of the Taj) raised this question on CNN.”
    >>The GPS, the SAT phones recovered all have logs directly implicating Pakistan. I am sure you must have seen images
    >> Like I said I am more inclined to believe my Govt.
    >> I have already mentioned- these guys definitely had local support!


    “There is also history of internal terrorism in India. Why are you forgetting that?”
    >>I am not forgetting anything. We have our problems, sure. But again and again as I keep pointing out, The probability of the guilty being brought to justice is far higher in India than in Pakistan. Also if you look at the history of the groups which have perpetrated violence in India against minorities- the attacks are nowhere close to the sophistication of this attack. They have always been led by the mob- Gujarat, Bombay ’93, Orissa etc. What explanation do you have for the following?
    – Almost 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits were forced to flee from Kashmir. Benazir Bhutto is known to be behind this ethnic genocide in the valley!
    – As horrifying as the Babri Masjid demolition was not a single life was lost. The blasts in Mumbai, masterminded by a dawood Ibrahim (roaming about freely in Pakistan) is what triggered the ensuing blasts.
    – The Parliament attack in 2001 was proven to be carried out by LET. The terrorists were Pakistani nationals. As the largest democracy in the world, it is to India’s credit that human rights activists are heard and the death sentence for that vile human being is still pending execution.
    – Musharraf was responsible for Kargil- again may I remind you that this infiltration was entirely unprovoked.

    “Your post tells me that either you are wither very young or your mind has been blocked by your emotions. Your media keeps contradicting itself and your government keeps contradicting your media. A few sane and well journalists have already criticised the role of the Indian media. Wait for the dust to settle and then make your argumets.”
    >> Nowhere in my posts have I gotten personal with you or anyone else. I would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy to me. I hope it’s not too much to ask for because then it is very easy to reduce this discussion to a verbal slanging match defeating the entire purpose of this discussion

  9. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    that was really a big bhashan.don’t you think?
    can’t you give some bhashan for your own people for example peace ful and broad minded RSS,BJP,BAJRANG DAL.tell them that they are nice and civilised people and burning and slaughtering muslims is not suitable for them.
    also give the bhashan to your security agencies tell them to be polite do not burn the train.
    also there is need of bhashans about not to fabricate the evidence as we saw after attack on indian parliment.
    and pointed out by inquiry commetie headed by narmila deshpande.

  10. Indian Avatar

    @ dr.jawwadkhan

    why dont you tell ur jihadis/militants/ISI/Army the same thing too while ur at it 🙂

  11. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    this is a really fantastic idea…..i,ll tell the jihadis that the slaughtering,burning and messacres are for our own good and there is no need to pick a weapon.
    we can win the hearts and minds of hindu majority by singing bande matram and doing some dandwats in front of your god and godesses.after that we can all live with peace and harmony.this is really very nice idea.thanks for guiding us.

  12. Mumbaikar Avatar

    @Sajjad: “Akal Takht in the Golden Temple
    complkex in Amritsar was badly damaged during
    Operation Blue Star.”: Of course I’m aware of the

    1. How is that “Demolition of the Golden Temple”?
    2. What the hell is someone supposed to do when
    terrorists find shelter in a temple? Incidentally,
    the cops then had explicit instructions to not
    harm the sanctum sanctorum.

  13. Indian Avatar

    Do you remember a man called Gandhi…let me refresh ur memory… he got you ur freedom without any reliance on violence… greater purposes can be achieved without killing other people…but unfortunately with ur limited world view i dont expect you to know any of that!

    It is people like you who are making the lives of Indian muslims harder…Now there is talk of profiling/tagging all indian muslims….all thanks to the constant infiltration, attacks, terrorism sponsored by Pakistan!

    Why dont you get ur own house in order…stop ur own people from being killed in NWFP, Balochistan etc before worrying about what is happening in India!

    Why dont you first improve the living conditions of the Hindus, Christians in Pakistan before worrying about the human rights of Muslims in India!

    Also if you are so worried about our fate in India…pressurise your govt to allow us to migrate to Pakistan…extend us a warm welcome…the world will see how many people leave India to move to Pakistan!

  14. Sajjad Avatar

    @ Ashish

    If you believe that a bunch of terrorists left Karachi, cruised through Indian waters for 50 hrs undetected by the Indian Navy then it is equally likely that the cause was cricket. Keep in mind this is the same Navy that takes minutes to intercept stray fishing vessels. The feat is even more amazing as there were joint military exercises taking place during the time on the coast of Mumbai and given the high security on the coast of Mumbai because of the Mumbai High Fields, which account for 40% of Indian domestic oil production.

    I would advise you to read about the security arrangements on the cost of Mumbai and then answer how the terrorists made it through. What happened on the ground is even more fascinating but I wont get into that.

    Now theories are surfacing that the insurgents entered Mumbai a month ago. Let’s see how this pans out.

    @ Indian

    Wasn’t Nariman House a foreign residence or at least a place where foreigners hung out?

    Why would an Al-Qaeda-type group attack foreigners in India when it can make an attack on an angrez country? Like you pointed out that they are against the west so why attack India?

    Why would Pakistan want westerners to stay out of India?
    Your “impoverished” Pakistan and “emerging” India arguments implies that Pakistan is involved in the attack as it is jealous of India’s prosperity. Now you are digressing from your stance that terrorist groups based in Pakistan are involved. Why do you contradict yourself so much? Besides, if such groups were to perpetrate such an act, economic progress would not be a motive.

    Why would terrorist organisations in Pakistan, which according to you hate India, attack foreigners when they can kill lots and lots of Indians? See the loopholes in your story.

    The main targets were Oberoi and Taj hotels. Lots of rich people there and attack on these places is definetely directed at the rich.

    So from Pakistani only attack now it has become an Pakistan + Local support attack. Slowly but surely you will get there. Let’s recap the changes so far:

    1. ISI attacked (Official Pak involvement)
    2. Groups supported by ISI attacked
    3. Terrorist groups based in Pakistan attacked
    4. Terrorist groups based in Pakistan attacked but with definite support from internal sources.

    See how the Pakistan part is phasing out and the Indian involvement is becoming clear. Keep an eye on the trend.

    A local outfit would want more international coverage than an already infamous group. Do you think Al-Qaeda needs more publicity? Already the problems within India are being highlighted in media around the world and people are finding out about the 160 million Dalits in India, the Naxalites and the treatment meted out to minorities.

    Maybe you have been blinded by Shining India and have forgotten that you still have the largest number of poor people on this planet.

    I see you have completely skipped that high-tech gizmos discussion. Couldn’t come up with an answer or realised that you created hype around a trivial thing?

    Look I have already told you that it is too early to tell. Maybe it was Bajrang Dal, maybe the Naxalites, maybe wven terrorists based in Pakistan. However I will wait before pointing fingers especially given the recent events.

    In your posts you have given a myriad motives, attacking jews, harming indian economy, targeting goraz and you have accused Pakistani govt, ISI, Army, terrorists, local support. You need to make up you mind!

    – Not aware of the 300,000 Pandit incident. Post a link and I will do some research.

    – So it is Ok to respond in kind? Then I guess Muslims i India should kill 2500 Hindus in response to the Gurat incident.

    – Still no solid proof.

    – I agree. Musharraf started it but it was hardly an act of terrorism. The area is divided by a line of control and Pak and India claim it to be theirs. Incursions over the LoI are common. Portions of Siachen have exchanged hands a number of times. So this was hardly unpredented as both sides have done this over the years. This is just an instant which escalated.

    I see that you have ignored the most potent part of my argument (Your media keeps contradicting itself and your government keeps contradicting your media. A few sane and well known Indian journalists have already criticised the role of the Indian media. Wait for the dust to settle and then make your argumets) and have taken offence at my jibe. It was nothing personal and hardly slandering. I was merely describing your current state. Making up one’s mind in 1 hour over an event that lasted 3 days in my opinion is childish.

    The days ahead will reveal:

    1. How come the whole Indian Navy was sleeping and allowed a boat to dock without their informtion (see my reply to Ashish)?

    2. How did the terrorists get their hand on structural details of the buidings?

    3. Why did the Indian security forces react so late?

    4. What is the relation of this event with the murder of the ATS personnel investigating Hindu Extremism?

    5. Why did Israel send its investigation team wihthout India’s request? A notable Indian journalist (forgot his name) called it “maan na maan mein tera mehmaan.”

    There are many more questions such as these that have been raised. Without the answer to these, an accusation cannot be made.

  15. Ashish Avatar

    Talk of tagging is for all Indians and not for Muslims only. If there is any discrimination in the hand of law that is only preferential treatment to Muslims in India in certain aspects and no law that restricts their freedom in any aspect.
    India has limited resources and huge population and illegal immigration especially from Bangladesh is causing havoc. So there are talks of having unique ID for all citizens which is norm in developed countries.

  16. Sajjad Avatar

    @ Mumbaikar

    Have you seen the pictures of the place after the operation. I dont think the forces were listening to what they were told.

    And yes, you can starve them out.

  17. Sajjad Avatar

    @ Indian

    It is people like you who are creating problems for your own country by externalising your problems.

  18. Ashish Avatar

    1. There are questions being raised on why Indian Navy was not able to detect. But it wasn’t 50 mile trip they failed to detect it was one hijack incidence. These guys captured an Indian fishermen vessel as soon as they entered India. And there have been reports of security lapse in regards to fishermen vessels which media is highlighting.

    2. Not too difficult thing to do, as they were planning for operations for long time and definitely had support in India. Corruption is rampant in both India and Pakistan and not too difficult to pay someone to get details.

    3. It took security forces couple of hours to realize what they are up against. They have never faced anything of this scale. Beyond that they were ill prepared to respond swiftly.

    4. About murder of ATS personnel, it wasn’t anything which was planned. Those officials thought of it as gang fight or something and faced terrorists with pistols in Hand. They didn’t know what they are against. ATS officials obviously were first line of defense in Mumbai and they were brave enough and i would add not intelligent enough to lead from front.

    5. Israel is sending investigation team as their nationals have been killed. Israel offered commando support which India refused. Be it Israel or US or UK each citizen’s death
    is important and taken up by Govt and not Like India or Pakistan where there is no value for Human life and those who died are just one of huge number being repeated in Media.

    If anyone be it an Indian or Pakistani believes Indian media especially likes of India TV on face value, they would be fool. India TV is backed by Suhaib Iliyasi who has multiple criminal cases pending against him and is most unethical among all. They didn’t even obliged to Army’s request for delayed transmission instead of Live one, which was not any kind of censorship but a request of not to help terrorists. They are in business of sensationalizing issues to attract audience. If you want to read real picture read and see Times Now or CNN IBN. CNN IBN live tranmission is available online at url mentioned earlier.

  19. Ashish Avatar


    I Agree externalizing problem is not the solution. Even if there is external elements involved they can not act without local support and cutting that local support should be key element of strategy.

    I remember reading somewhere, When Bush met Manmohan Singh he was introduced as ‘He is prime minister of country of 150 million Muslims with no single Al-Qaida member’ and that may not be true today.

  20. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    we know about gandhi and we know how the philosophy of “AAHINSA” was murdered long before the murder of mr gandhi.
    but please correct yourself about independence.
    1)it was not gandhi,it was quaid e azam mohammed ali jinnah
    who won the freedom for us.the greatest of all leaders ever lived in subcontinent.please read “jinnah a corrective reading of the indian history” by asianand
    2) freedom without any reliance on violence????
    don’t believe every thing which is portrayed by bollywood movies. there was millions of muslims who were brutally messacred by hindu finatics.ethenic cleansing is in the foundation of india. thatswhy india still couldn’t get rid of it.

    it is not people like me who are making the lives of indian muslim harder,it is the “hindu towa” which already made it.

    why don’t you refrain yourself from following artshasta and chanakiya and let your neighbors in peace.pakistan, bangladesh, srilanka, nepal every where in the neighborhood
    the miseries and restlessness points only one direction….india

    don’t even think of comparing the condition of minorities in pakistan with the minorities of india.pakistan have much better record when it comes to minorities.
    the hypocricy of inida is that they pick people from minorities for higher posts(president,prime minister,army chief etc etc) and get the licence for genocide and athenic cleansing.

    we will be much better if india stop promoting terorrism in FATA and balochistan.(14 cousaltes are working day and night to accomplish this task)

    “Also if you are so worried about our fate in
    India…pressurise your govt to allow us to migrate to”

    thanks for advise.paksitani govt: already did it60 years grandfathers migrated from “RAJHISTAN”.he was not educated person and my father became educated,worked and retired as a chief enginier from govt department(unimaginable if we were in india)
    no matter how hard time of our history we are facing without a slightest doubt in my mind i believe that pakistan is a greatest blessing of ALLAH(swt) to us.

  21. Ashish Avatar

    Not that specific book, but I have read a lot about Jinnah. It is a truth that Jinnah was a secular leader and wanted a secular Pakistan which didn’t materialize.Also he didn’t ask for a separate nation in first place and that demand emerged only after he was completely marginalized by congress and hence joined Muslim League. He asked for Pakistan when he realized that we will not be able to create his own place in Congress. He asked for a single state with reservations for Muslims in certain areas which congress rejected as it wanted equal voting rights for all.

    I respect Jinnah as he was an educated Muslim for whom religion was not the only thing which mattered. He married parsi girl and his daughter married a parsi and his grand sons are prominent business family in India (Bombay Dyeing, for those who are not aware of it)

    Lets just think where it all started. Pakistan giving support to ‘Freedom fighters’ in Punjab and Kashmir. And those people have gone out of their hands as happened with Indira Gandhi’s support for LTTE, America’s support for Osama and other radical groups in Afghanistan and Saddam etc. It is high time for world realize terror is no solution for any problem.

    Wish Pakistan could have followed Jinnah’s advice which most if not all Muslims in India followed:

    “In July 1947, before partition, some of his community members of Central Constituent Assembly asked Mohammad Ali Jinnah for his advice to Indian Muslims in the new State of India. Jinnah, refrained from giving specific advice but cautioned them, ” be loyal to India, concentrate on education and politics, and avoid confrontationist politics” and that “they should not seek to ride two horses” (The Muslims in India by A.G.Noorani) . Another quote attributed to Quaid-i-Azam is equally pertinent–“We are all sons of this land. We have to live together. We have to work together and whatever our differences may be, let us at any rate not create more bad blood… Believe me there is no progress of India until the Musalmans and Hindus are united, and let no logic, philosophy or squabble stand in the way of coming to a compromise…”. “

  22. Ashish Avatar

    BTW, I am in no position to compare how life for you would have been if you would have stayed back in India, but can assure you would have got similar opportunities as Hindus.

    Probably your father wouldn’t have got better opportunities in Pakistan as due to Mahatma Gandhi’s agitation Pakistan got disproportionately high share of nation’s wealth during partition which was essentially based on total Muslim population of India and not of Muslims which moved to Pakistan.

    Thus Pakistan much better per capita income for first 30 years but post 91 liberalization India has been growing much faster to make up for that loss.

    To get current peek into Muslim’s condition in India have a look at:

  23. Ashish Avatar

    oops, I meant your father would have got better opportunities in Pakistan than in India.

  24. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    quite impressive!
    “It is a truth that Jinnah was a secular leader and wanted
    a secular Pakistan…..”
    i disagree that he was a secular his youth he did marry a parsi girl but he changed diametrically in the last few years of his life.he disinherited his daughter for marrying a parsi she didn’t have any choice except to return back to india.
    i have quite a big number of refrences from his own speeches that he wanted an ideologic islamic state.but this not the right time and forum to present it.

    no advise,no religion,no ideology and no force can stop the out comes of injustices.i wish indians could understand the simple rule.

  25. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    equally impressive u turn!
    “BTW, I am in no position…….. opportunities as Hindus”
    please do not tell me about minorities of india by giving us some ridiculous links.i have my own relatives still live in india also i personaly visited india few years ago and when i returned,i thanked ALLAH(SWT)for not let me be an indian faith in pakistan grew more stronger.

    when i got the admisssion in medical batch comprised of 500 indian can believe that 200 of that batch was hindus……unimaginable in secular india.

    your gandhi gave you a secular india. but he couldn’t give you a secular society.

  26. Sajjad Avatar

    @ Ashish

    1. The distance is not 50 miles. It is a tad above 500 nautical miles (almost 600 miles) and most of this journey was in Indian waters. You can forgive the Navy for missing a fishing vessel that temporarily enters Indian waters but to allow a boat access to Indian waters for approx 50 hours and then dock is incomprehensible.

    2. Easier said than done. If hotel plans are for sale in India, it better watch out. However, once the link between the terrorists and their supporters becomes clearer, a better analysis of the issue can be made.

    3. Commandos train for these activities. Within hours NSG was there on site but yet the operation took 3 days. Keep in mind there were 12 people spread in 3 localities. An organised mob could have flushed them out earlier.

    4. How do you know it wasn’t planned. Indians thought that the bombings Karkare was investigating were carried out by Muslims but found out that it was a planned “false flag” operation. These things only come out after a thorough investigation. Top 3 ATS investigators who had been repeatedly threatenend by Hindu extremists were killed within the first hour. Coincidence? Higly unlikely.

    5. Your foreign minister, during a press conference, told the media that he had refused foreign support from UK / USA (can’t rememeber exactly) and had told them that if Indians could successfully run a country of more than a billion people, it could manage the investigation on its own. The very next day, a committee flew in from Israel. Help in investigations is offered not given forcefully.

    There are several other observations:

    1. The saffron band on one of the terrorist’s wrist (pic available online).
    2. “Suspicious” activities around Nariman House before the attack.
    3. The immediate and planned response of BJP.

    However, these are merely conjectures and based on “non-credible” evidence just like the stories the Indian media is peddling. The Indian government’s response has been considerably better. It is also good to know that a reaction to the initial mindless slandering specifically by the hindi media has finally come. Yesterday on a Pakistani channel, an Indian report from Star News was played, and the guest Indian reporter (forgot her name) called it a “scene out of a bollywood film.”

    Finally, a cardinal rule of investigation is not to reveal any information so that once the complete picture has been pieced together, the actual sources could be identified and caught. I am sure that the investigation teams given that task are practicing this mantra therefore whatever comes on the media at this point in time is amateursih speculation by people who want to raise their ratings.

  27. Ashish Avatar


    If it is true, having 200 hindus in batch of 500 is impressive. 40% of batch comprising of less than 1.6% of people.

    Meritocracy is something we missed in India. In India in such a batch, there would be 50-75% of people from reserved categories, depending on state, including so called SC/ST who have been living better life than general category students, Muslims, Christian SC/ST (though there is no concept of SC/ST in Christianity but people won’t convert unless they continue getting reservation) and then there are other institutions which are Minority institutions having 50%+ reservation for Minority such as Muslims and Christians.

    In states like Tamil Nadu after all those reservations only 5-7% of Brahmins get through and thats why you see large number of South Indians in institutions abroad.

    I am really impressed if Pakistan gives equal opportunity to compete regardless of religion, cast, creed. That is something which lead to Pakistan being knowledge superpower in future.

    India is not a nation without problems and no one here likes politicians but there are enough checks placed in system. As you pointed out ATS didn’t hesitate investigating Army involvement. RSS has much less following in India than you would have imagined. Only reason BJP has following in middle class is not because of its Hindutva links but as that is the party which comprise of higher number of educated individuals than any other.

    BTW I have long been thinking of forum for increasing people to people interaction between India and Pakistan. Had started a website during early days of Internet aimed at helping people find lost relatives across borders and got some success stories there.

    There are perception about ‘us’ and ‘them’ on both sides and such interactions if held at logical level can help bringing out true picture.

  28. Shahzad Bhatti Avatar

    To Sajid:

    Look closely it’s not a Thread that the Hindus wear.

    It’s too thick

    It’s bright orange- what they wear is a reddish one

    Their Red thread also has a white one woven into it- this is plain orange.

  29. RAJA Avatar

    Dear Ashish,

    Its been nice to c u comments a healthy discussion. I most of readers should consider few facts when making comments otherwise it will be moot point.

    It is not a Secular state like India which is just for namesake as there Hindus are in majority and minority are under subdued.I think you should not deny it otherwise we will only try to prove my comment is right and no conclusion. Basically name of India should be Hindustan. In a secular state every religion should let all have equal rights but there is a constant effort to prove one religion right and distort other religions and convert somehow the other.This may be in constitution but not in practice ( exceptions may be there)

    As most of Indian muslims even in this blog proud to be a nationalist than muslim Ummah.

    I qoute Allama Iqbal and Mr Jinnah below and you could conclude your self

    1. It cannot be denied that Islam regarded as an ethical ideal plus certain kind of polity by which expression I mean a social structure regulated by a legal system and animated by a specific ethical idea has been chief formative factor in the life history of the Muslims of India.”

    Would you like me to see Islam as a moral and political ideal, meeting the same fate in the e world of Islam as Christianity has already met in Europe ” Is it possible to retain Islam as an ethical ideal and to reject it as polity in favor of national politics in which religious attitude is not permitted to play its part ?”

    2.India is a continent of human groups belonging to different races, speaking different languages and professing different religions …. To base a constitution on the conception of a homogeneous India …. is to prepare for a civil war.

    3.Pakistan scheme proposes a separate federation of Muslim Provinces directly related to England as a separate dominion. This scheme originated in Cambridge. The authors of this scheme believe that we Muslim Round Tablers have sacrificed the Muslim nation on the altar of Hindu orso called Indian Nationalism.

    1.’ The differences in India, between the two major nations, the Hindus and the Muslims are a thousand times greater when compared with the continent of Europe.’

    2.India is not a national state, India is not a country, but a sub-continent composed of nationalities, the two nations being Hindus and Muslims whose culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, name and nomenclature, sense of value and proportion, laws and jurisprudence, social and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and traditions, aptitudes and ambitions, outlook on life and of life are fundamentally different nay in many respects antagonistic”.

  30. RAJA Avatar

    Has indian government shown bodies of any of terriorist. If not i wont consider them dead as it to me that india is looking for aggression towards pakistan.

    As nato forces( usa) are bombarding FATA now indian wants to apply same algebric equation to protect its bounderies and i tell u now they will start bombing claiming they are training sites for ?terriorists.

    This is an American plan or Bush plan as they want to come and play indirectly as their Iraq and afghanistan adventure has caused them great international disgrace. Indians are just Slaves to their masters first it was britishers now usa.

  31. Ashish Avatar

    A discussion involving experts from both India and Pakistan:

  32. ahad Avatar

    we all know that it was all planned by india itself. i dont understand tht dont u indians know wat u guys are doin’ in afghanistan,balochistan,sarhad and even in FATA.u guys r so ignorant of the facts.i wonder how much clever would those young guys be tht they crossed the coastal borders with such efficiency gr88 isnt it.u guys’ve been blamin’ and blamin’since decades ,plz come 2 da reality and try to accept ur weaknesses and extremism .n plz tell me r u jealous of r ISI n ARMY oooo’ plz dont b.since when u guys r a part’f da jewish and american lobbies and’ve started playin’ such cheap monoplies against da muslims and u guys against PAKISTAN especially. tell me r u guys really jealous ,dis makes me laugh u know but no prob really we’ve got the power’f truth n faith and we would lub 2 face any challenge’s alwayz.ur attitude iz not gonna chnge then y should v keep silent.n beliv me da whole world iz inshallah goin’ 2 know da real side’f the torch bearer of da world’s peace keepin’ nations INDIA.i dont understand y r u guys playin’ games wid da souls’f da gone ones they wan’justice not ur weak and baseless blames.check da heartz’f ur extemist minds filled wid da hatred agnst muslims n PAKISTAN and u guys wont b able 2 face da world.

  33. HaHaHaHa Avatar

    What I don’t understand why do you think ‘World’ is conspiring against Pakistan? Is Pakistan, a country which goes to brink of bankruptcy every few years, that important for USA, Europe and Israel.?

    As if you are the enlightened ones who know what your govt is doing and done and rest of world including Pakistani media and other Islamic country media debating Pakistani involvement are bunch of fools.

    Indian Army conspiracy, RAW conspiracy and all that. Wish RAW would have been strong enough for that. They are no CIA or ISI, who can act in Nation’s interest without seeking vote-hungry politician’s approval.

    Just read about India and Indians through neutral websites and you will come to know, how much false shit about India you have been fed on since school days.

    I have been reading Indian and Pakistani blogs for last few days and it seems ‘There are few fundamentalist (few Hindus and few Muslims) in India and few Moderates in Pakistan’.

  34. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    can you give us examples of genocides in pakistan?
    can you point out similar genocides like gujrat( where peoples are swinishly murdered, raped and economicaly destroyed) are orchestrized in pakistan?
    can you give us examples where masses of fenatics killed innocent peoples because they do not share the same religion?
    can you point out the single incident where an acting army officer burnt the whole train with people (burnt alive) and major political party come to support that criminal?
    can you give us any example of ethnic cleansing like orisa?
    can you give any example when 70000 people are killed because they ask for right of self determination?as agreed by/in united nations.

    there is no comparision between india and pakistan when it caomes to minorities.

  35. RAJA Avatar

    @ Ashish
    If india want to bomb terrorist camps no problem but so by same token we should bomb same army battallien of col. who burnt the train full of pakistanis- and we will bomb few ministers houses as well.

    BUT if those ? camps turn out to be poor civilians Are we allowed to bomb you Parilment and Presidency and your house ( as you also supporting this ) who would be directly or indirectly involved in innocent killings.

    In my opinion before going that route think twice we are not same apologetic ( as our govt ) forgiving people anymore. As bearing too much Zulm is also kufr in Islam and 100 yrs are enough for overlooking.

  36. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar


  37. Happy to oblige Avatar
    Happy to oblige

    Please view this video by Kashmiri filmmaker Ashok Pandit, “And the World Remained Silent,” (linked here, and ) which chronicles the ethnic cleansing of some 350,000 Hindus from Kashmir during early 1990. Do take not of the jihadist speech of the late,Ms. Bhutto.

  38. Indian Avatar

    Obviously it is ok for you to harm me and mine but not ok for me to protest or retaliate…

  39. Indian Avatar
    “WMD attack to originate in Pakistan: US report”

  40. Ashish Avatar

    And now Kashmiri Millitants say Pandits are as much part of Kashmir as Muslims and we want all of them back in Valley.
    We know and acknowledge life of a common man in Heaven on earth has become Hell because of terrorist attacks and also due to Army’s attempt to prevent such attacks.

    But people have a hope, that though some innocent people were victim of operation in Punjab but now once that terrorism has been wiped off from Punjab it is one of most prosperous state in India. And that hope has been demonstrated in recent elections.

  41. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    same old bullshit in form of speculation and islamophobia, we saw many times.

    please give us some thing concrete and solid.

  42. Indian Avatar

    Its been 18 years…these people have been living in refugee camps all over India..

    I have not heard of any militants saying that they want the Hindus to come back to Kashmir…Please do give me the links…
    But i have heard with my own ears people on loudspeaker asking Hindus to leave the valley or be prepared to die…
    I am sorry but unless i hear the first message with my own ears too i am unwilling to believe that!

    Terrorism was wiped clean in Punjab because the Govt decided to act tough and strike at roots… I think the time has come to do that in Kashmir too…..

    I am tired of seeing my state being slaughtered day after day…

    @Dr J

    Unfortunately if ur eyes are closed…even if the truth were to hit you between the eyes i doubt if you would believe it….

    I just want to say..dont you think it is unfortuante that a nations name is sullied because of the acts of a few??? that Pakistan is inching closer and closer to being categorised as a terrorist state or a rogue state? That once your allys are increasingly turning around and pointing fingers at you?

  43. Ashish Avatar


    Ok, I agree this is all speculation, but does that help. An Important management lesson is ‘Perception is all that matters’. If you are a company manufacturing best possible product and people don’t think so you will go bankrupt.

    So, I agree Pakistan has no involvement, but not just India, world doesn’t think so. I agree its all a false propaganda by India to defame Pakistan, but thats how the real world is. They have succeeded and now onus is on Pakistan to prove that they are not involved. Doesn’t help saying we are being framed without proof, because lets face it whatever anti-US feelings you may have, US has control over world institutions and IMF bailout that Pakistan got recently and will need more of it.

    And it would be great news for both India and Pakistan if Pakistan comes clean of it and tension between both countries is eased.

  44. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    if you have some thing useful and concrete to share, we will be happy to watch other wise it will be the waste of our time and yours also.

  45. dr.jawwadkhan Avatar

    it will be surely a great news if the tenison between india and pakistan may ease.
    but i couldn’t understand the validity of the notion that “one is accused and now it is the obligation of the one to prove his innocence”.
    can you give me the one example of any civilised society which parctice this kind of judicial aberration.
    “accuser should provide the evidence” sound logical….isn’t it?
    we live in the world where every carnivorous animal not only chants his right to attack the herbivorous but also demands the law which can refrain the herbivorous to resist such attacks.

  46. Indian Avatar

    @ Dr J:
    Please do take a look at the videos i posted..and then maybe we can talk abt genocide and ethnic cleansing!

  47. Ashish Avatar

    There is a difference in accusing and general perception.
    If a product is accused of being harmful to health, allegations are found baseless but public believes there may be some truth in allegation, people continue thinking of it as bad product.

    Even if nothing gets proven against a criminal or even if court says he is innocent, if the whole society believes that he is still seen as criminal he will face a neglect.

    And there is no denying in it that Pakistani nationals have been involved in terrorist activities earlier. Even ex-ISI chief and Zardari in an interview essentially said that ‘ISI is responsible for few such incidences earlier but now Political wing has been dismantled and its completely under govt control.’

    So the best approach would be to have a look at current situation and work on coming out of it. Indians do accept the problems they have, no sensible Indian wants Hindu terrorism and are happy that it has been dismantled at its early phase. When they were able to accomplish just one attack and that too to take revenge of killing of a Sadhvi’s boy friend by SIMI.

    No sensible Indian supports,Gujarat Riots, Christian Killing , whatever may be justification and cause Killing another human being of whatever religion is not acceptable in society. I have still to see an Indian who thinks that even if one’s family is killed by someone (logic given for Gujarat and 93 Mumbai blasts) one should go ahead and Kill other innocent people. Offcourse except for those few members of VHP, RSS, Bajrang Dal who use ‘mob emotions’ for their personal gain.

    And this is not a problem in India, religious riots is problem in whole of south Asia, more people have been killed in Shia-Sunni riots than in riots in India.