Guest Blog by Azhar Aslam
India today is considered by the world to be an established state. Indians think they are on the brink of acquiring super power status. LeT on the other hand is a banned organization considered to be a terrorist non-state actor. So why is it that the belligerence and jingoism Indian state and media is what would be expected of an organization like LeT. How come Indian state is behaving like a terrorist organization?
Non-state violent actors, until recently have been called mercenaries and have been used, by different powers throughout human history. British imperialism started its life in this shape and form, the most famous being the East India Company. Sir Drake , Sir Raleigh and other such “privateers,” were all non state entrepreneurs who advanced state power. Lawless violence often preceded the rule of law.
More recently after the Second World War United States has employed several non-state forces in various parts of the world to further its foreign policy agenda, often at high human and economic cost to that country and its people. Ironically Afghanistan was one such theatre. The Indian support for Baluchistan insurgency is an open secret. There is a strength of evidence for Indian and US support for ‘Jihadist’ groups operating on Pakistani territories.
After the recent Mumbai attacks it has been claimed by India ( serious evidence still pending) that a non state actor LeT has infringed its territory and perpetrated lawless violence. Indian state and its leaders are now invoking this as a reason to respond in kind. The jingoistic antipakistani stance of Indian media and politicians is being built to hysterical levels. There have been calls to respond in ‘manner of United States’.
It is most disturbing that Indian government instead of behaving in a lawful manner befitting the largest country in the region, has tried its fullest to take ”advantage” of human misery in its own country and of its own people and made this a ‘Pakistan-centric’ event. When it should have been paying attention to healing its own wounds, India has seen it as an opportunity to salt these wounds and create fresh ones. And here the state has been led by hysterical media. That tells volume about the structural stability and framework of Indian institutions claimed to represent world’s largest democracy.
Indian state wants to behave like private bullies , justifying violence , revenge and torture just like non-state terrorists. As Arjvind Rajgopal has put it ‘War has become the preferred means of practicing politics under the guise of opposing terrorism, and it is endorsed as a sacred duty’.
India seems to be following in USSR tradition and trying to create an aura of invincibility for its own ego satisfaction without considering the hundreds of millions of its citizens who are hungry, poor and destitute. Is the death of nearly 250 people, mayhem for a few days in one city, a little hurt ego more important than the teeming masses who linger in poverty. Should India not be concentrating its efforts on spending money for creating infrastructure for its own; of education, health, transport , economic opportunities. Is it worth a war?
Common sense answer is ‘No’. So Why is it that certain parts of Indian media/intellectuals/politicians triumvirate, want India to respond in an American manner? Our analysis leads us to two reasons.
First, Indian leaders and intellectuals suffer from severe inferiority complex and generational anger lingering on from British Raj days. For all the talk of rising power of India and Indians taking over the world India is desperate to declare itself as a super power one way or another. Look closely at the pattern of Indian media’s coverage. It was not designed for Indian masses. It was designed to be fed to the international audeince, in particular US and UK citizens, whose gullibility has no limits. And it is seems India has decided that its response to Mumbai attack, (which by the way was smaller in number of casualties compared to 1993 or 2006 or Gujrat, just to quote few examples) is going to declare to the world that it has turned into a regional or world super power.
India has this complex about being ‘Like America’. This is no more than a sign of serious inferiority complex and insecurity of its own identity. The most obvious sign of this inferiority complex is that the event is described as India’s 9/11, with enemy intruders committing murder and mayhem. “9/11″ has become a nationalizing mantra across the globe, an invocation to remember violence in order to garner consent for violent retaliation.
No one has even considered that what the world has turned into after the American response. It is not as if the world has become a safer or better place that this response should be imitated. The signs of being super in power are maturity and sagacity. It is to reach out and stand against terrorism of any kind and take other ( in this case smaller) countries in the region with her. It is to lead. But has India done any of it ? No sir. So forget about being super in power. India needs to set its own house in order.
This brings us to the second reason behind India’s jingoistic stance. It is related to the long standing failure of Indian state. It has failed in three important respects. First, it has failed its own secularism and failed to forge an Indian nation; second it has failed its own poor in pure economic terms; and thirdly it has failed its Indianness in its eagerness to ape the west.
Not withstanding show boys of Indian Muslims (from Abul Kalam Azaad to M J Akbar) there is the increasing discrimination in civil society and the media against Muslims. Indian state continually fails to provide justice to its minorities and masses. Then there are Dalits, Chrsitians, Bhuddists, Tamils, Naxalites. The list goes on. I quote Gopal again:’ Muslims in India have, for some time, been treated as internal enemies, through a combination of covert and overt socio-economic boycotts, state discrimination, episodes of intense political violence, and anti-terror legislation granting judicial powers to police.’
And what is Indian response to all this. For Kashmir, it blames Pakistan; for the seven sister states Bangladesh is the culprit and China takes the blame for the Naxalite insurrection. India has been in a state of perpetual war due to its ego, border disputes with all its neighbours and misplaced priorities.
Then there are pure economic issues. Here again Indian leaders ego complexes have led to failure of its own people. This failure is villainous in part and negligent to criminal extent. It is multifold and multilayered. While ‘India is shining’ for an elite minority, the masses and the land is being opened up for a new form of colonialism for Bharati and multinationals corporations, in the name of reforms and progress.
What Indians have failed to grasp or at least have shown no capacity to put any such understanding into context is that they are seen as no more than a big economic market opportunity for western nations and corporations, due to sheer numbers. Research from the McKinsey Global Institute (MGI) shows that within a generation, the country will become a nation of upwardly mobile middle-class households, consuming goods ranging from high-end cars to designer clothing. In two decades the country will surpass Germany as the world’s fifth largest consumer market. It is this which attracts West; not some attitudinal shift in Anglo-Saxon thinking. If they are under any illusion that suddenly Westerns have started seeing them as equal partners, all they have to do is to sit in few pubs across middle England. That shall be more than sufficient to clear such delusions of grandeur.
Consequently in the name of progress, poor are marginalized. Cities suffer from severe economic and social segregation. The slums for the poor are demolished and ghettos moved around. Muslim and Dalits in India are overwhelmingly concentrated in such ghettos and, in episodes of Hindu nationalist violence, have been the principal victims of assaults. It is not India shining. It is Bollywood shining and like tinsel town it is more razz matazz than substance . The Justice Sachar Committee, in 2006, reported that ‘the condition of Muslims had deteriorated to such a point that they were worse off than the untouchable caste, which has traditionally occupied the lowest rung of Indian society’. In some cases, Muslims are ostracized to the point of social death.
And for all the talk of famed reforms by the present Indian Prime Minister in early 1990s, when he was a finance minister, it was more a case of India being at the right place at the right time by sheer luck than any planned strategic goal achievement. Indian progress owes much to certain historical events converging fortuitously at the right time. The collapse of USSR forced India into balance payment crisis, forcing Rao and Singh’s hand to deliver economic reforms where by Licence Raj was ended. At about the same time seeds of globalization were being sown while West was recovering form the recessions of early 1990s. The scores of English speaking graduates of IIT were now suddenly available at cheap labour adding impetus to Indian preeminence as outsourced markets. Western corporations were looking for cutting their costs and they started outsourcing. Indian diaspora played its part. Manufacturing was outsourced to China and IT services to India. Subsequently ore reforms followed and FDI increased as western corporations themselves sought a slice of the market.
This brings us to the third Indian failure. The fact is that Indian middle class is fast losing its ‘Dhesi’ values and the South Asian culture is being undermined by the still persistent and widely prevalent ‘ Ghulam Zahniat’. For all the slogans of ‘new super power’, ‘largest democracy’, ‘big and powerful country’ etc, the Indianness is fast ebbing away.
Most middle class Indians feel more proud to speak, act and live and display the consumerist western lifestyle than any indigenous South Asian, Indian or Baharti lifestyle. Their tastes are indistinguishable from those of prosperous young Westerners – high-end luxury cars, designer clothes, maids and full-time cooks, and regular vacations, abroad.
One sign of this is the elites in Mumbai assuming that they too must respond “like America’’ and asking where their Rudy Giuliani was ? The irony is that the sign of being developed and civilized in India is no longer the welfare of its general masses in economic and social terms but ‘ State terrorism and war’.
Like Pakistan Television is being watched increasingly in India and nearly two thirds of the population has now access to television. And it is very profitable. Consequently there is intense competition in news sector and live TV. Many of 24 hour channels are owned by transnational media corporations. And Like Pakistan a disproportionate number of prime time viewers tune into news channels (perhaps due to the age old Subcontinental taste for politics). Consequently this was the first attack that was being telecast and watched live. It seems that even the planners of these attacks knew this and planned to take full advantage of the global audience on offer. The death of V P Singh and eight people in Tamil Nadu rains from 26 to 29th November went nearly unmentioned. To quote ‘They died unmourned and even unmentioned on the explosive screens that kept millions enthralled’.
As some Indian pundits have asked that while media fixated on ‘who’ and ‘how’ for these attacks, ‘why’ was completely ignored. It is the media which seems to be leading the response of Indian State rather than the other way round. In other words, the corporate agendas of the media owners has dictated the response of Indian rulers and Indian state. The proof of sympathy to the upwardly mobile middle class urbanites it seems is war with Pakistan at the cost of teeming poor and destitute billions. As Gopal points out that the ‘the media in India is only nominally public. …it is elite who own the space and dictate the terms of its discourse. In the recent attacks hardly any attention was paid to the railway station where sixty people were killed. TV crews stayed focused on the luxury hotels, where “People Like Us” were affected.’ To quote J S Raman ‘The elite of Mumbai and elsewhere, mourning the fall of the elegant Taj, have been trying to sound tougher than even the politicians of the Parivar (the Far Right “family”).’
We thus see that these three fundamental failures of Indian State that have either incapacitated the senses of Indian State and its rulers and they are being unwillingly led by the media or they have simply become complicit in the dangerous egocentric brinksmanship regardless of the cost to people of Subcontinent. That the complex to ‘be big’ and ‘super power’ is fuelling this on cannot be doubted. But the world is watching. And India must take a note. The very status it craves for more than anything else is under threat due to its childish and amateurish actions. The more it acts like ‘Non-State’ actor the more it risks its status in the comity of nations.
Comments
474 responses to “Why is India behaving like Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT)?”
Counter Terrorism
I have life beyond Adnan Sami and India.But for your satisfaction I have really taken time out to post it ,with loads of love,enjoy the read and best of luck.
Adnan Sami gets threatening calls
Pakistani singer-composer Adnan Sami has reportedly been getting threatening calls ever since the terror attacks in Mumbai, asking him to leave the city immediately.
Said a concerned friend of his: “The calls started coming soon after that horrendous Wednesday (Nov 26). The command was simple, ‘Leave Mumbai immediately or be killed’. At first Adnan took the threatening calls with a pinch of salt. After all, he has been targeted ever since he made Mumbai his home 10 years ago. A group of musicians have been constantly campaigning to get him out.”
But soon the threats got frequent and increasingly persistent in tone.
“That’s when Adnan decided that this time it was more serious than before. For the first time, he became seriously worried for himself and his wife Sabah,” said the friend who did not want to be named.
Apparently Adnan sought security from the authorities, but he later decided to get his own security.
“He now moves around with four bouncers and four armed men provided by a security agency. These security personnel accompany him everywhere. They stay in his house, go to concerts and other social occasions with him. Adnan is seriously worried about his life. He has told very close friends the name of the organisation that should be held responsible if something untoward was to happen to him,” the friend added.
When contacted, Adnan was reluctant to speak on the sensitive subject. “Where did you hear about it? I guess the security is so visible one can’t really hide the reason behind it. I won’t say much on this. But I will ask one thing. What have I done?”
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That is what all the Pakistanis are asking
What have we done.
‘Pakistani artistes should be allowed in India’
Subhash K. Jha, Indo-Asian News Service
Mumbai, December 14, 2008
First Published: 10:00 IST(14/12/2008)
Bollywood has criticised the Shiv Sena’s decision to stop Pakistani artistes from performing in Maharashtra in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror strikes. But musicians like Gulzar and Aadesh Shrivastava feel ghazal singer Ghulam Ali, whose concerts in India were cancelled last week, should have chosen a better time.
Following are some of the reactions of the leading lights of the industry: Shaan: A ban is harsh and against the creative tenets of music. Proper paper work and a work permit visa should be adhered to. Rules will have to be respected by all. Artistes like Ghulam Ali saab are legends who should be adored and revered.
Shekhar (of the duo Vishal-Shekhar): Musicians are musicians. Whether they’re Indian, Pakistani or British doesn’t matter. It would be really stupid to ban Pakistani singers from performing in India. Just as Indian artistes cannot be blamed for terrorism in Pakistan, Pakistani artistes cannot be blamed for terrorism in India.
Alka Yagnik: No, the artiste in me says it’s not right to ban a great artiste like Ghulam Ali on the basis of his community.
Adnan Sami: Should America ban Canadian and British musicians? Do we buy music according to caste, creed or nationality or because we love music per se? We only spread love and harmony through our music. Whatever happened to the belief that music has no boundaries? Instead of wasting time jumping on the ‘banned’ wagon, musicians should just concentrate on creating good music. And by the way why just Pakistani musicians? Why not ban kebabs and cuisine from across the border?
Farhan Akhtar: It’s not right to ban a musician like Ghulam Ali. He’s an artiste and he has nothing to do with what’s happening. Such kneejerk reactions are detrimental to the future.
Aadesh Shrivastava: I’ve no objection to Pakistani artistes coming to India. But they should be worth it. I’m a great fan of Raahat Ali Khan, Abida Parveen and Ghulam Ali saab. When Ghulam Ali saab was prevented from coming to Mumbai, I was greatly pained because he has nothing to do with what happened to Mumbai.
However, has he bothered to make one statement against the 26/11 attacks? Considering how welcoming we’ve always been, it seems only right for someone like Ghulam Ali saab to speak out against terrorism.
We always extend the utmost hospitality to Pakistani artistes. But they should learn to appreciate what we do for them. So many Pakistani musicians and comedians were nobody back home. We made them celebrities in Mumbai. Who knew Adnan Sami before he came to Mumbai? All I say is when they come here they must have the proper respect for our hospitality and work permit.
Gulzar: Let’s not make a larger issue of a very specific and critical situation. Mumbai has been through trauma. And there was no need for Ghulam Ali saab to choose this time to perform in Mumbai and other cities in India. This is no time for events and celebrations. He’s a regular visitor to our country and more than welcome during normal times.
Pritam Chakraborty: No, musicians from Pakistan should not be banned in our country. I am both angry and sad for the 26/11 attack and upset that the whole thing originated on Pakistani soil. But that’s politics and has nothing to do with music. Musicians all over the world have no caste, creed or religion. As a kneejerk reaction we should not ban Pakistani singers from performing here. The problem lies in politics not music.
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It is Adnan’s personal choice where ever he wants to stay artists are beyond borders.We Only wish him luck ,health ,happiness and success!!!
@Farrah,
An interesting bit of news
http://music.ndtv.com/story.asp?id=ENTEN20080076404
The application for Adnan’s Indian citizenship is under consideration. “I’m as Indian as anyone. I’ve been here for 10 years. Mumbai is my home. The procedure to acquire an official citizenship is still on. And I don’t want to jump the line. Or jeopardize it in any way.”
I dont think Adnan will anyway considering for his citizenship in India if he feels that India has not welcomed him. That in itself exemplifies what India stands for. In a democracy it is natural that people are going to react to a situation in different ways. The extreme views gets exaggerated by the media.
Now speaking of the larger issue,
I will be lying if I say that most of the Indians have good will feeling towards Pakistan. The reason is very simple, Indians feel that there has been a sense of denial from the Pakistani media and most of the people about the fact that pakistani soil is being used for terrorist acts against India.
I know that Pakistan is sometimes as complex or more complex than India and it could be hard for the leadership to handle the extremist elements out there. But a gesture of acceptance from Pakistan’s end will go a long way in calming down the tempers.
Lets assume for a moment that, India is lying and has made up this whole propaganda against Pakistan. Why is the whole world then agreeing with something India has made up? Is there not a possibility that these terrorists would have come from Pakistan, inspite of the overwhelming evidences. Is it that hard to believe?
farrah k raja on January 6, 2009 @ 4:03 am
… You need to know the story of poor Adnan Samee how he is kicked out of Secular India, ……
My whole point is ab’t the above quoted line. In support of ur claim you are producing debates and opinions. Had he forced to leave India, your comment wud have made sense …. but nothing like that happened. So, you should get ur facts right first before propagating hatred.
Now lets start another topic/incident. 😀
@karthick
Ah buddy! … we are having fun here .. dont u see the content/tone of the original post/comments. And you are taking this thing seriously …. trying to put reason here. Lets see how people on this blog respond to your comment.
Karthick
The place called India,their Democracy ,progress,Film Industry and rest.I have no problem with anything.What I do not understand is and what my protest is ;What does India wants from us?
You are not the only victims of Terrorism.The world is.
And so is Pakistan.
India cannot get up and start blamming other country,a mature nation or a nuclear nation have been to moon should not behave like this.
The Pakistanis do not understand what do you want from us?
The attacks happend in Bombay ,bring up the evidence ,bring it before International world.
Prove it than ask Pakistan to take action.
I happened to be in UK at july 7.London attacks happened Bitain did not go crazy bomb Pakistan.They held the investigation,provided proofs,asked for help through government it was provided.all the assistance was provided.
I am not guilty neither is rest of Pakistan ,just on basis of scandeleous media hype…………
I rest my case here.
Also Richard Reid is a British convert Muslim,caught on plane to US with failed attacks.Us did not decide to bomb Britain.
for arguement sake Kasab is Pakistani ,what is India going to do ?Bomb Pakistan.
You have him in custody ,punish him.
Why rest of Pakistanis are criminal?
Just because BJP or Shiv Sinha is part of India ,or taken down Babri mosque we didnot think we should attack India.
Marriot happened ,Pakistanis didnot started to cry bomb India??
India sent war planes on us,we responded with calm.
Calm and restraint and looking within and working together will help.
Blaming ,becoming hysterical would not.
Two nations have to learn to co-exist ,choice is ours what is the future of our next generation that is what we have to think.
Please do not forget if you are concerned about India Iam concerned about Pakistan.I have a family as well.
When India sends war planes on my city how do I feel,directly threatened.
Bombay blasts?A conspiracy theory in itself.Never any where in the world head of Anti Terror squad is hit?
Why Amresh?
What was he doing to Pakistanis?
If LEt is a problem it is within India as well and in rest of the World as well.
Why Pakistan?
To be honest,India has hurt me and has lost a friend.Never to be trusted.
Bombay attacks hurt me as much as it did to Bombay .I work in a hotel industry and no seeing Marriot and Taj was no fun.
But I was so wrong in sympathising with India.They do not want to know the problem ,adddressing is another thing.
The way India has handled the issue has damaged a lot of hard work of very sincere people and their efforts to bring peace in the region and to bring people closer.
It is a shame in real sense to fail at humanitarian level.I am anti arms person ,anti war as well.
I have my identity and that identity is Pakistan .I am sorry I cannot extend friendship to a country which sends war plane just to threaten civilians.Just because India has got Ajmal Kasab who was high on drugs and the torture and abuse he had been through his , evidence is not credible.
voices of reason for Indian guests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=436ZYOImdUc&feature=related
Comment by CounterTerrorism on January 7, 2009 @ 2:27 am
“My whole point is ab’t the above quoted line. In support of ur claim you are producing debates and opinions. Had he forced to leave India, your comment wud have made sense …. but nothing like that happened. So, you should get ur facts right first before propagating hatred. ”
————–
Shame on you if you think the reports and posts are not threatening and harrasing to a person.
Because of racial prejudice and menace because of his faith what he is going through is just a laughing stock for you ,this is against what I am protesting your attitude and denial.
Everything is fair under Democracy and Secularism.
What can I say apart from we have to build our defence higher.
To the Bharati readers / commentators of this post?
Can you please tell me what exactly have you found laughable about the post?
1. Veracity of the facts that I have stated ? Or
2. The conclusions that I have drawn ?
You may indeed disagree with some or all the conclusions, but these are based on facts. The matter is serious and needs great deal of introspection by any and all patriotic Bharatis.
Some of you have said that you are having fun. If your idea of fun is name calling, and pooh poohing serious issues just for the sake of it, then that is your prerogative, indeed. But the issues that I have discussed, need serious reflection by all of you. After all it is in the interest of your country that it grows up and acts maturely.
We shall wait and see what happens next. I expect that at some point, not too distant in future, Ajmal Kasab will be put on trial and Hemant Karkare’s killing will be investigated? For that is what a law abiding democracy should do.
My sincere advice to you all is to ponder on what I have said, at least until then.
What an interesting debate.
@Azhar,
I commented earlier
>> Indian leaders and intellectuals suffer from severe
>> inferiority complex and generational anger lingering on
>> from British Raj days
“inferiority complex” eh?! :D!
I think I feel the need to elaborate. I didn’t mean to be rude, However in hindsight, I think that I shouldn’t have worded this way.
I have lived in India for 24 years of my life and never at any moment, have felt that there has been an inbred anger against pakistan, even among my friends. Extreme reactions come up when stuff like kargil and other things happen. If Indians were so caught with this so called generational anger, how do you think they can embrace Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Junoon and Adnan Sami. The “inferiority complex” part is something which made me laugh. I could never relate to that.
As I had mentioned earlier, I appreciate the research which went inside the blog. India has its own problems. No one is denying that, It needs to address it and there are many hurdles on the way. I liked the way you have brought out the issues facing India. I agree to the issues. But then conclusion drawn according to me are extreme.
> Indian state wants to behave like private bullies ,
> justifying violence , revenge and torture just like
> non-state terrorists.
This is something I can never agree to. India has never started violence against any country. Please look at the history. All the wars were not started by India. Even now, the Indian leadership has not used the word “war”.
> India has this complex about being ‘Like America’. This
> no more than a sign of serious inferiority complex and
> insecurity of its own identity.
India like any other country wants to get developed. “Like America” when it comes to development. I dont think desire to get developed is a sign of inferiority complex. And come on, insecurity of Identity?? Its hard for a person outside India to actually understand the sense of unity in diversity we feel.
> First, it has failed its own secularism and failed to
> forge an Indian nation; second it has failed its own poor
> in pure economic terms; and thirdly it has failed its
> Indianness in its eagerness to ape the west.
The judgments, I strongly disagree. India will not be a functioning democracy if it has failed in the first two aspects. Of course there is a lot of room for improvement.
> The fact is that Indian middle class is fast losing its
> ‘Dhesi’ values and the South Asian culture is being
> undermined by the still persistent and widely prevalent ‘
> Ghulam Zahniat’. For all the slogans of ‘new super
> power’, ‘largest democracy’, ‘big and powerful country’
> etc, the Indianness is fast ebbing away.
You are choosing to word it this way. I am just seeing Indianness is evolving. Just because we are getting developed, in now way does it mean that our Indianess is ebbed away. For me, Indianness is more in how we feel than the way we lead our life.
> That the complex to ‘be big’ and ‘super power’ is
> fuelling this on cannot be doubted.
The complex you are taking to be big and super power. I dont think India wants to be a super power. India wants to be a developed country, where every person can chase a dream and acheive it. I think you have this obsession for the word “complex”. Do you think it is time you point the mirror at yourself and introspect about any complexes which you could have?
> The very status it craves for more than anything else is under threat due to
> its childish and amateurish actions. The more it acts
> like ‘Non-State’ actor the more it risks its status in
> the comity of nations.
The essense of the article.. I agree to. India has it own headache of problems. If you refine your article this could even become an editorial in the newspapers in India. Coz most of editorial anyway bash India :).
But one thing every Indian is clear that, it does not want any problems from outside. Thats why this urge to curb violence from outside.
India has its issues, I am sure Pakistan has its hand full, what we both don’t want is, make lives difficult for each other. 🙂
@Farrah
That was quite an emotional response. Even though I can understand your frustration on Why Pakistan? Why blame the neighbors? We would like to co-exist. I think there is some amount of frustration from the Indian side, you might want to look at too.
I hope you would have heard of Maulana Masood Azhar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/578369.stm)…He was in Indian prison and was exchanged for the lives of hundreds of Indians who were held hostage by terrorists. He is free in Pakistan and its not me is who is saying it, Please refer to the bbc site. He is not the only one. How can we forget the infamous Dawood who was last spotted in Karachi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawood_Ibrahim).
Now lets say that some Indian has bombed Marriot and he is leading a free life in India and he is plotting more attacks against Pakisstan. How will you feel? It is the similar response what is coming from India.
Lets put things into perspective. Arundati Roy is an amazing author, I agree with her points. India has quite a lot of internal problems. As I stated earlier, India has to address its problem and we don't feel pakistan is responsible for those issues. However, if evidences and witness of Mumbai attack points hand to few elements in Pakistan (gps records, phone transcripts, witness of the caught terrorist), What do you think India should do, just ignore?
Please dont get me wrong, I am in no way implying in that just because one drugged terrorist who is allegedly from Pakistan has killed people here, everyone in Pakistan is like that. That is the last generalization I will make. I am just trying to make a point that, if evidences and whole world (except pakistan) say that the perpetrators of the attack are from pakistan, what is the harm in even considering it? Only when an problem is detected it can be addressed. isnt it?
The argument about how Mumbai attack is a conspiracy theory. Sorry, you can interpret it that way if that makes you feel better. However, evidences say otherwise. (the world feels otherwise too). On what basis are you claiming that it is conspiracy theory. Saying that it is based on the anti-terrorism chief's murder, doesnt satisfy as a claim to me.
The aircraft incident of Indian planes flying over the pakistani territory has been denied by India. Pakistan did not respond after that. FYI
I am sorry to hear that India has lost a friend in you, I would be happy if you can sit back and think how the emotions of billion people in India is not out of thin air. Of course the expression of reaction has been extreme. See the amount of people sacked in the government… There has been a revamp of security agencies. As the evidences point to Pakistan, there has been a genuine feeling among the people that Pakistan has let them down.
I agree that your identity is Pakistani and very point we are having this discussion is based on that understanding :).
Your thoughts?!
@CounterTerrorism
I have faith that we can have a quite a logical discussion here. Thats the reason behind my comment!!
Please read about this Indian Terrorist or was he Pakistani too?
Kafeel Ahmed, aka Khalid Ahmed and Khaled Ahmad, (1 January 1979 – 2 August 2007)[1] was an Indian Muslim born in Bangalore, India and raised in Saudi Arabia during his doctor parents’ tenure there.[2] He was an engineer who was studying for a PhD in computational fluid dynamics. He was often mistakenly referred to as a medical doctor.[3] He was arrested in Great Britain in the aftermath of the 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack. He was held hospitalized at the Glasgow Royal Infirmary in a critical condition, after he suffered severe burns in the attack. He had suffered burns to 90% of his body, and was not expected to survive—he had already been revived twice as of 4 July.[4] The Sun reported Britain’s National Health Service was paying over £5,000 a day to keep him alive, while security sources said this amount reaches £30,000 when security costs are included.
Mobile phone records have shown that, during his 2005-2007 stay in India, Ahmed had frequent communications with Malta, the UK, Finland, Saudi Arabia and Oman. [5] In May 2007, prior to departing to Britain from his native Bangalore, he entrusted his mother with a compact disk he said contained some important information on his “project.” The disk has been handed over to police for analysis.[6] Although the analysis is not yet complete, it had been revealed that the disk contained speeches by al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, propaganda against the United States and Britain[7], some Jihad literature and the plight of the Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya. It transpired that Ahmed attentively followed campaigns in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, and frequented Islamist chat rooms on the internet. Digital material found included graphic depictions of real-life occurrences of torture in Chechnya, hundreds of bomb design from the internet, and evidence that he used the Bangalore-based political platform, Discover Islam, for the purposes of recruitment.[8]
Kafeel was the brother of Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, also arrested in the aftermath of the attack.[2] A suicide note left behind indicates that the passenger of the vehicle, Bilal Abdullah, and himself, intended to die in the attack.[9]
According to police sources, he was an engineer pursuing a Ph.D. in computational fluid dynamics at Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge, in the UK, on the topic of “Computational Approach to Ink-jet Printing of Tactile Maps.” He would have earned a bachelor of mechanical engineering from India, and an M.Phil. degree in aeronautical engineering from Queen’s University Belfast.[10] He might have been in the UK as early as September 2003. He is believed to have organized a Chechnya Day Meeting in his native city of Bangalore, back in February 2006.[11]
As an aeronautics engineer, Ahmed was able to secure employment, from December 2005, to August 2006, with Infotech, an Indian outsourcing company servicing clients such as Airbus and Boeing, before resigning abruptly.[12] It could be possible that he had access to sensitive design information about various aviation companies.[13]
He was a member of the Tablighi Jamaat missionary sect.[14]
There are indications that Kafeel Ahmed and Bilal Abdullah were behind the 2007 London car bombs plot, and investigations are being carried out to unearth a possible involvement with the deadly 2005 Indian Institute of Science shooting, an attack with unknown suspects that are still at large.[15] A Rediff news report reveals that Ahmed was planning on constructing a housing complex on the outskirts of Bangalore where Islamic Sharia law would be forcibly implemented on residents, despite India’s secular constitution and separation of religion and state. In January this year, Kafeel had disrupted a meeting organised by a Bangalore-based organisation to discuss reform in Islam[citation needed]. Prior to his terrorist attack in Glasgow, he had visited numerous Islamist websites, including that of the Jamaat al Dawa, the parent organization of Islamic terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Toiba.[16]
On 2 August 2007, Strathclyde Police reported that Ahmed had died in the Glasgow Royal Infirmary.[3] His last rituals will be held in UK rather than in his hometown of Bangalore.
Karthick
I hope you understand what is the complexity I am talking about.
Karthick
After reading the post above,” Comment by farrah k raja on January 7, 2009 @ 3:01 pm ”
I hope you understand the COMPLEX and Complexity of denial I am talking about.
If glasses are on your eyes and you keep blamming others that they have stolen it what can we do??
Karthick
Apart from all this ,I would not jump from a train knowing I am sitting next to you!
Might ask you for a coffee actually but what can we talk about???
We (indo pak) have internal problems and we have been to wars .So we cannot just say that people are fine and we are friendly etc.
The peace process is extremely fragile and trust is not built yet,Congress and PPP might not want to go to war but the biggest challenge is not war ,it is to bridge this gap to bring down this mistrust.Everything is not right in Asian Backgarden,which ever country it is.
Neither Saudi Arabia nor Britain has run after India ,despite having the conextions of Kafeel Ahmed to India ???
It is not that India is special ,it is because British and Saudi Arabia are responsible countries.
So let us stop ,a kettle calling a pot black.
(Flash News: “Kasab is a Pakistani”, Pak NSA)
@Farrah,
I find that there has been a change in the flow of our discussion towards Kafeel Ahmed now.
Comparing the situation of Kafeel to Kasab according to me is like comparing apples and oranges. Reasons,
1. India never had wars with UK (at least in the last 60 years) and there is no disputed territory between the two.
2. Indians and Indian media, were never living in denial of the fact that Kafeel was an Indian. The indian authorities acknowledged the fact that he could be from India (The references of the wikipedia article you shared has more Indian newspaper references than anything). I am sure if India had taken it personally and denied UK’s claim as allegation, things would have been a lot different now.
3. India do not have any one in UK’s most wanted listed living freely. (the fact, which you chose to ignore from my previous comment on Masood Azhar and Dawood)
In Kasab’s case right from the day one, the majority feeling in Pakistan (@least as reflected by media) has been plain outright denial on how Kasab can never be a Pakistani. That according to me, poses a challenge, as its difficult to have a dialogue with that closed mind.
Talking about the glasses, I am all willing to remove the glasses and look at the world. But you got to give me the sources, credible neutral sources. I just cannot take your words by itself, neither can you.
> So let us stop ,a kettle calling a pot black.
Nope. We are not trying to get into a blame game here. I for one think, all we are trying to do is have a discussion where each of us can understand, each others point of view.
Karthick
We are discussing Terrorism,and the nations responsibility and response to handle it,
Kafeel to Kasab?
Karthick
I would not be posting any further on this.
I am not a person responsible for everyone India is looking for?
Yet you are keep on insisting that I am?
George Bush has killed whole of Afghanistan and are still unable to catch Osama?
Israel is ready to kill whole of Palestine and yet Hamas will be there?
All I can say is bridging the gap is not one way .
Have a good cup of tea dear .Our top officials are busy in negotiations I will wait for the outcome.
@Farrah,
Bringing in Kafeel to the picture to me is drawing a comparison on how Indian handled Kafeel and Pakistan handled Kasab.
I am not making you responsible for anything. My comments are just in response to your views and to articulate my views in a better way.
Personally, I feel war on terrorism or war in itself is not a solution. If dialogue/peace cannot solve issues, what else can?
I know that we spending hours in this platform flaunting each other’s patriotism is not going to help the exact ground situation. My engagement in this is just to understand the perspectives. I did have a fruitful discussion.
Ooops, time to rush to school 🙂
Cheers!
i wz jus blogin wen a phone rang, but der wz no1 2 answer, then again the phone rang, again no1 2 answer, it happend quite a number of times. it continued for a week daily at the same time. Havin no clue as 2 wat was happenin i carried out my indeginious investigation & 2 my surprise it wz a kid frm the neighbour tryin to irritate. I hd no instance 2 prove that the blank calls r comin frm the neighbour’s house, so i tried scoldin the kid on phone. i cudnt scold him personally as dat reqd me to hv proof. It dint help, the calls continued, fews days ahead i informd the guardians to look into the matter and keep a chek on the kid. They might hv taken some measures or may be not coz it dint effect them in any way. The blank calls continued, i approached them again, they assured me to check it,bt quite obiviously in the absense of proof they cudnt stop the kid. The trouble continued. Finally I decided to have a caller id detector connected to my phone.
I am showing it to the neighbours they dont seem to admit. I continue to approach the neighbouring guardians, it seems as if the kid doesnot listen to them, their is a joint reaction from the neigbour’s family members, sumtimes admiting to the fault sum times dening. Meantime its quite a number of weeks now and the trouble continues. Wat shud i do?
@fren,
Bollywood scenario !!
poor you, but the kafeel problem is still there !!
Farrah nicely nailed ” the thick” !
gud….
frenz lets utilize our time for things other than showing mirrors especially wen ego betrays our own prudence, our mind wins over our own intellect. Lets divert our energies in economic progress n surprise those who choose to ignore us. Only then will the world follow that, what we speak and that what is correct, ethical, just and unbaised. Lets be the power and then discuss wisdom.
V dont realise bt world is waitin fr a leader, lets create the atmosphere fr him, if not be the leader himself.
We cannot compromise on that. We hv a responsibility.
@Fren
Keep on repeating, re approachin the neighbour. Neighbour is not one person, avoid blaming, dont be rude, make his incorrect attitude visible not only 2 others bt also 2 himself, his conscience. Let vry1 c wats happenin. 1 can neglect it 2 can neglect it, bt nt all, remember that conscience agrees with you. And conscience is 1 throughout, its not relative, person/family/country specific. Its omnipresent. V choose 2 b +ve and thats final and thats the only way we can make our coming generations proud to be part of our culture.
Its fr the intellegent(including Farah) to percieve who nailed whom. however whether or not she cud nailed sum1 it hardly effects the reality. Its all about learning from the past and acting accordingly in the future. And anyhow arguments won here prove nothing, it only proves that the winner is a better convincer and loser need not be wrong.
So …. there is no choice bt 2 b unbaised and let our prudence survive our ego.
A big clap for Seeker. In this age of fast food culture he still believes in old style dharma philosophy. You have provided some sane voice on this otherwise junk/propagandist thread/blog.
Thnx CounterTerrorism
well bt so far v r all seeker though not a biliever yet. Having said that, our intention shud b 2 make our task (of bilieving what we preach) a bit easier. Agree or not but my word has already struck a chord and gathered a clap though a sarcastic 1 but these +ve words will guide our thoughts and mould into actions for others to see and follow. I wish these word 2 blossom into a epidemic. We take charge of our responsibility and v dont hv 2 worry, this epidemic will eat up all the terrorism.
Like I said before. You Paki’s are hopeless. You can’t give a straight honest answer when asked a straight no non-sense question.
All you can do is bluster with bull shyte about religion and action/reactions (jawwad) blaming America and Israel for all your iniquities.
When will you take responsibility for your own actions? When Allah asks you on judgment day why you supported terrorism and killings of innocent people, are you going to point fingers at the Americans and Israeli and say to Allah “they made us do it my Lord”?
WHAT AN IDIOT is what HE will say. God will be laughing at your stupidity and tell himself “oh what have i created?”
LOL these Islamist Pakistanis are hopeless and thanks God they are in minority.
There(s) absolutely no doubt about Kasab being a Pakistani and that Molana Masud Azher, Lakhvi and Sheikh Omer resides in Pakistan and that our Pakistani Army is unfortunately playing a double game and now the official status of Masood is: “on the run”…which is a joke…
for the devil’s advocate!
learn some lessons from pervez musharraf he was also delusional about the silent majority but when silent majority spoke he was kicked out.silent majority is unpredictable and always show fluctuations.silent majority do not support the violence but rest assured it also do not supprot the cheap,disgusting and obnoxious secularism.
hey roma!
you are still here?
barha hi begherat hey bhi tu….
@farrah!
great job. i am impressed.
Only if i ud nt hv been sidelined & categorised as a philosophical brain.
But wen u as a guardian will dcide of the family, this(wat i hv suggested) is wat u will land up doing. There is simply no other correct way.
Like said b4 its fr the intellegent to percieve who nailed whom in this space, lets not win this argument & the rest will fall in place.
Conscience satisfies every geniune curiosity yet its simply not its responsibility to answer all our arguments.
Why everybody is silent here. No new thread on pakistani acceptance of kasab’s nationality. I bet that everybody here knew this fact from day 1 … but still chooses to show how India is eternal enemy of pakistan and blah blah. I am waiting for another theory that how zardari and co. have sold the national pride by accepting this forced lie.
Please enlighten us!
@ counter terrorist,
A RAW agent can reside in Pakistan as in Israel !!
Out of 12 only one left alive, just to activiate
Parnab MUkherjee to do his job !! bla bla bla bla bla .
Mumbai fiasco has not charme left , go home !!
that is because we are not good in lies and denial.we have to learn a lot from india in this regard
he is pakistani and pakistan govt: excepted that.
indian govt changed it’s stance about non state actors and started saying that such scale of operation can not be done with out the involvement of state.
now india is asking for guaranties,support and participation of americans to attack on pakistan.
how pathetic
india is niether america nor pakistan is afghanistan.
a time has come when we should also include the injustices and annexed state terrorism in our agenda.
@roma,
nobody is asking fanatcism lessons from you,
ninkumpoop mirza from Hiafa and his Hinduvta
dharam food !!
@Asad Ali
You all along found ‘charm’ in Mumbai fiasco …. and now that charm has lost due to ur gov have accepted one bit of truth after a month of aggressive diplomatic campaigning. And now u found a new ‘charm’ in Gaza strip. This is interesting, funny guy.
@dr.jawwadkhan
Wah! .. kya baat hai. Ankhe khol di Indians ki tumne to.
How easily and swiftly ur gov has done the job. After putting whole nation on the verge of war! You are mistaken by “non-state actor” notion. It was coined by your own president. India never said that it is done by non-state actor though they always maintained whoever the actors are, they are on paki soil, so its ur responsibility to act on that.
Lol .. at ur notion that India is preparing for war. If they have wanted it they have already done that. No need for uncle Sam’s support …. com’on u shud know that 😉 Our gov. knows that war is never be a solution for cowardice terrorism. Thats why this whole diplomatic pressure and all.
Now coming to ur agenda, who said that terrorism is not ur state sponsored agenda? It has been since 80s. Think something different for the sake of ‘change’.
Chishti is right. MQM sent their Goons to Mumbai on W-11 minibus via Kemari to attack on Taj Hotel. AKC, why dont you give name of your sector Incharges who supplied emos?
Teeth its like banging ones head to the wall…
Indians wont listen… you will get a lot of flame… they will flood comments and keep on doing so until you stop comments
It will still be worth a try.. and you will get a lot of traffic
@counter terrorism!
lashkare e taiba or jesh e mohammed…..
aren’t they non state actors?
no it is not a notion.
“If they have wanted it they have already done that. No
need for uncle Sam’s support ….
i assure you inspite of intense urge to attack pakistan,it can’t because it needs balls of steel to face the nuclear holocaust which fortunately indians do not have.i bet indians do not have any kind of ball. lolzzzzzzzz(tumhen bharat mata ki qasam)
STATE TERRORISM….like gujrat messacre and ethnic cleansing of kashmiri mulims and other minorities…
never heard of gujrat????
@dr.jawwadkhan
Falling into Zardari trap! But again this is therapy for pakis to repeat this 5 times a day and hope someday whole world will agree with it. No Dr. sahib .. enuf of BS.
“i assure you inspite of intense urge to attack pakistan,it can’t because it needs balls of steel to face the nuclear holocaust which fortunately indians do not have.i bet indians do not have any kind of ball. lolzzzzzzzz(tumhen bharat mata ki qasam)”
Hehe …. who said, to attack pak u need balls 😀
Remember 71 … it was ballless lady who pounded ur 90k brave and masculine soldiers. Lol
Nuclear holocaust ?? …. Go and bargain americans and west … this trick wont do to Indians.
“STATE TERRORISM….like gujrat messacre and ethnic cleansing of kashmiri mulims and other minorities…
never heard of gujrat???? ”
Heard of Guj massacre …. was unfortunate .. some 2,000 people were killed in that. But ethnic cleansing in kashmir … i have heard diff version and so is world. Now i also heard of Bangla suppression … some 2 lacks people were killed and many raped by ur brave and masculine soldiers. Same thing they are doing though on smaller scale in Balochistan. So keep ur sympathy/sentiments for ur own countrymen rather overflowing it for Indians.
@counterterrorist,
you are so stupid, you missed my comment @ 2-30 pm,
India is running terrorism since she assassinated Ghandi,
who protested against muslim’s genocide in Bengal ! since
then the f***ing Kali does stop functionning, asking for
more and more blood of Dalits, minorities, and muslims,
would I be telling you something strange ?? just check
Indian history of communal violence since 1946 to 2009.
Here is a subject for a change ? Listen your bangladesh
bullshit does not work,
Indian army 14 divisions (616.000 Indian soldiers)plus
250.000 Mukti Bahini,(Indian bastards) invaded, E-Pak
with Pakistan just having over ONE DIVISION and Pro
Pakistan elements. You Indians were always hijras and
cowards. your mighty army was not even worth one soldier
of AURANZEB ALAMGIR, JEHAPANAH, MUGHAL-E-AZAM THE
GREATEST OF GENERALISSIMO ! YOU KHUSSRAHS
“Remember 71 … it was ballless lady who pounded ur 90k
brave and masculine soldiers”
isn’t it a confession that india is not so innocent??
by the way indra gandhi was murdered by her own body gaurds.
who took the revange for operation in golden temple.
funny thing is that indra gandhi after dhaka fall announced that we have drowned the 2 nation theory in bengal sea.
poor chhinal….
that is the problem with the indian they still live in 1970.
paksitan was not fall into two pieces because of indra or indian army, it was us who fought each other and got separated.
india fueled the sepratist movement they trained and recruited mukti bahani and help them not only fight pakistani army but also genocide of the non bengalis.which i believe was not necessary because paksitan had to be divided any how.
well dear time is changed you might never heard of pakistani nuclear doctrine because no body talks about that but i can assure you that in case of war pakistan will use it’s nuclear weapons just after a brief fight……
indian official know thatswhy they are so reluctant of going for a war.
balochistan is a open secret of inian state sponsor terrorism 14 indian counsulates are working just to promote sepratist movement and “state sponsor terrorism”
i don’t know which kind of version you heard but i suggest you the human rights and amnesty international’s version
or you can follow your own indian link:
http://www.indiatogether.org/peace/kashmir/articles/indhr.htm
@counterterrorist,
you are so stupid, you missed my comment @ 2-30 pm,
India is running terrorism since she assassinated Ghandi,
who protested against muslim’s genocide in Bengal ! since
then the f***ing Kali does not stop functionning, asking
for
more and more blood of Dalits, minorities, and muslims,
would I be telling you something strange ?? just check
Indian history of communal violence since 1946 to 2009.
Here is a subject for a change ? Listen your bangladesh
bullshit does not work,
Indian army 14 divisions (616.000 Indian soldiers)plus
250.000 Mukti Bahini,(Indian bastards) invaded, E-Pak
with Pakistan just having over ONE DIVISION and Pro
Pakistan elements. You Indians were always hijras and
cowards. your mighty army was not even worth one soldier
of AURANZEB ALAMGIR, JEHAN-PANAH, MUGHAL-E-AZAM THE
GREATEST OF GENERALISSIMO ! YOU Bollywoodian KHUSSRAHS
¨ Remeber, Indian Army in Bangladesh tortured and
assassinated 180.000 Pakistanis and Bangali patriotics.
@this is just the outcome of disorder created by
Indo-Israeli offensive in Fata and NWFP.
The Batilans Consortium of Intrnational Terrorism.
To: Jawwadkhan and the likes of him,
In regards to the letter from SWAT.
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? Just answer yes or no. dont make it complicated.
Like I said before. You Paki’s are hopeless. You can’t give a straight honest answer when asked a straight no non-sense question.
All you can do is bluster with bull shyte about religion and action/reactions (jawwad) blaming America and Israel for all your iniquities.
When will you take responsibility for your own actions? When Allah asks you on judgment day why you supported terrorism and killings of innocent people, are you going to point fingers at the Americans and Israeli and say to Allah “they made us do it my Lord”?
WHAT AN IDIOT is what HE will say. God will be laughing at your stupidity and tell himself “oh what have i created?”