In a seminar on the “Education System in Pakistan: Lessons Learned and the Ways Forward” at the Islamic University in Islamabad Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy made a very shocking and controversial statement to state that
The News: “The culture of effective communication was diminishing in universities as the number of female students hiding their faces with Burqa (veil) were rapidly increasing compared to the trends that prevailed during the decade of 60s and 70s”
Dr. Hoodhboy may be a learned professor having detailed insights into the functioning educational system in Pakistan, does definitely have the right to have an opinion, but somehow what makes me wonder, that this forward thinking liberal philosopher must have better appreciation for respecting the right of every individuals, simply the right to express himself/herself on how he/she may dress should ride well with at least this educator, be it tight fitting jeans or a typical top-to-bottom veil with bare minimal opening for the eyes. These women come to the university for education and definitely not to be ogled at by their teachers and fellow students on how they dress.
So when Dr. Hoodbhoy uses the pretext of “hindering the culture of effective communication” makes me want to give the learned gentleman a deserved a solid whack on the knuckles. Why should he be bothered how the girls in his class dress?
Maybe as one facebook commenter rightly pointed out, it might interest the professor to give up his telephone, mobile and email as that too can be a hindrance in face-to-face effective communication. I may respect his right to have an opinion, but for no apparent reason he’s just asking for trouble
Update: Credit to Nadir for clarifying the issue further, there is a definite possibility that the comment published in The News may have been taken out of context, but within the same report it was also reported that some professors also contested Dr. Hoodbhoy’s statement. The exact words used can be a debatable topic
Comments
173 responses to “Pervaiz Hoodbhoy against Burqas in Universities?”
I think this has been taken a bit out of context. From what I heard from someone who was their the issue was about female students being intimidated by either professor's or student right wing groups on campus who had threatened female students. As the article in The News says:
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy replied that exceptions could be there but he was worried of this growing trend as he knew some teachers at the university level who were openly advising that those female students were not allowed to enter their classrooms who did not observe Burqa.
Of course individual choices should be held at the forefront, and female students must feel secure in an educational environment free from intimidation from their colleagues, teachers, administration etc.
Nadir – good point – I percieved this in a differet way – it might be best to soften the article if the scholar was debating the issue in a more logical sense –
But Nadir – if you read the report again this section
goes to suggest that there was opposition to some of his comments – But I agree – there is a possibility of some debate on what words were actually used and in what context
makes me want to give the learned gentleman a deserved a solid whack on the knuckles [Teeth Maestro]
====================
Dear Dr Awab,
How about some soul searching before starting "Inquisition" of Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy! Didn't this very blog run a post "Are you Gay"??? Is it allowed in Pakistani Culture to be precise Islamic Society? Isn't it a tantamount to create mischief on earth?
if anyone doesnt know..please be advise Dr Pervaiz HoodBahi is an Ismailee…which are non for the modern ideas against Islam
One of the Colleague of Jinnah was also an Aga Khani i.e. Sir Aga Khan III Sultan Muhammad Shah was one of the Founding Father of Pakistan.
Quaid-e-azam himself was an ismaili
Not that I was there, but the article it self seems very weird. For one what was said, was it in English or Urdu, that said alot could have been lost in translation. The author of the news article hasn't done anyone any favours by not quoting exactly what was said and skipping along the line of argument. Then again who knows – just seems that the article has jumped on sensationalism without context.
We already knew Hoodhbhoy is an anti islam element at QU.He is more concerned about Americans and less about Pakistan.Such people should be kicked out of this country.
He is very critical of Americans. By the way what is Anti-Islam??
Headlines like Jap City No More soon brought the news to a joyous nation. Crowds gathered in Times Square to celebrate; there was less of the enemy left. Rarely are victors encumbered by remorse. President Harry Truman declared: When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true.[ii] Not surprisingly, six decades later, even American liberals remain ambivalent about the morality of nuking the two Japanese cities. The late Hans Bethe, Nobel Prize winner in physics of Manhattan Project fame and a leading exponent of arms control, declared that the atom bomb was the greatest gift we could have given to the Japanese Bin Laden And Hiroshima By Pervez Hoodbhoy Saturday, August 06, 2005 http://www.zcommunications.org/bin-laden-and-hiro…
I wonder why the people, who apply the rational of freedom of choice when defending burka, overlook the psychological and patriarchial manipulation that force women into burka.
If burka is just another dress that a women choses to wear then I would invite resepctable men like Dr. Awab to start wearing burka as a fashion statement. After all there are so many kinds of dresses such as jeans that both men and women in Pakistan have adopted to wear. Why is then burka limited to women?
The reality is that burka is not just another dress. Its a symbol of woman's oppression. The notion that a woman requires extra protection through her dress is itself patriarchial and objectifies women as much as porn or nude film does.
Any sane person should oppose burka rather than pandering to the popular Islamist sentiments.
don't you think you are sounding more like a Fazalur Rahman? What was your school who taught you that Burka means oppression? Have you ever learnt the definition? Google suggested:
# the act of subjugating by cruelty; "the tyrant's oppression of the people"
# the state of being kept down by unjust use of force or authority: "after years of oppression they finally revolted"
Read it once and tell me how does it fit with Burka? According to your theory of stupidity, a women wandering naked is fully free and enjoying freedom? What if a woman is FORCED to wear skimpy clothes? No wonder such retardish thought could just be thrown up by seculars. Recently I covered such retardish factors of my society in my blog:
kadnan.com/blog/2010/03/07/fooling-women/
he must be pointing to the Dogmatic Ninja outfit like the one "Molvi Burqa" used to run out along with females, wondered to this day who removed her burqa to give it to Him?????
its not about hijab but the front veil. who knows who comes underneath that SECURITY THREAT.
Awab,
One assumption you make in your rebuttal is that those who do not wear burqa are a target of being ogled on by their profs/peers. Its very unfair to make that assumption. You almost sound like the arabic ad where they compare a woman with burqa to a candy covered with fly.
On Dr.Hoodbhoys point, I do agree with him. Having done my undergrad at University of Karachi, I remember a hoard of fellow students who did burqa and it is tough communicating with them. A burqa is virtually a wall that says I dont want to talk randomly.
A big part of face to face communication is reading the facial expressions or body language, if you can do that with an individual wearing a burqa than you are gifted. As for the pervs, I have seen some in my alma mater whos dirty mind travels beyond the realms of a burqa.
In my humble opinion, the Burqa doesnt solve any problem but goes on to add a few.
Kumail – I accept that the ogling comment was off-topic, and apologies profusely, but i used it to drive a point, a situation which i personally have noted once to many a times – I strongly believe education, or for that matter good education, is NOT dependent on wearing/not wearing a Burqa
Personal Communication as regards to facial expression might be – but is that the criteria to condemn them. Questioning them on the veil is like the trying to copy hue and cry raised in France – it seems Dr. Hoodbhoy wants to mimic the French system – it starts by questioning the veil then working to condemn it fully (not saying it will happen, but the issue has been raised) – I personally don't see the veil as suppressing womens right to freedom, I know many women who wear the veil as per their own choice, and I have seen most do it out of their own courage and will to do what is right, according to their own belief.
Typifying all burqa-clad female as suppressed or intellectually inferior is in my opinion wrong. A liberal scholar like Dr. Hoodbhoy should show them how to be free in their own capacity, not link symbolic issues like Burqa as their liberation for womens rights.
If this leads to hindered communication, then why not improve the education methods to exploit and bring about more eye-to-eye contact improving personal communications it may very well be a problem within our own education system (which is mostly the case) so lets not transfer the blame.
When I was doing Ph.D, one of my professor did not take girls as his student who obsreved face veil. He was very straightforward in this regard and used to say that face veil is not obligatory in islam. Personaly, he was very honest, kind to his students, a good muslim and a man of principles but I never saw him compromising on this issue. He is no more with us, but with him I realised that this is not an issue..its only a choice. Later, my coleagues who observed purdah got foreign scholarships with the condition that face veil would not be allowed and they went abroad following this condition. Everyone including me was astonished, so you can see its a choice and not an issue.
A muslim woman can choose it but it always surprises me why muslim men are so emotional about this. This is not their problem. There is a large number of men insisting women to cover their head and do this and do that. And whenever, somebody says anything against burqa it seems its more a problem of their honor. All men should remember its not their problem, let your women have some freedom and let them make decision about this by themselves. Most of them will do what my Ph.D. coleagues did to get those scholarships.
i can agree with this.
If it is not the men's problem then what about people like Pervez hoodbhoy,who "suggest" hijab observing college students not to waer it?
how it can be the problem of pervez hoodbhoy?
your profession is the classical example of radicalism and fascism.
Aniqa,
So that proves that burqa was not an hindrance to their learning. If they were doing PhD and got scholarships, that means upto that point, burqa didn't stop them from getting what they wanted.
Pervez Yahoodbbhai is obviously against Islam in general. He is a waste of time. Don't give this Trojan Horse any importance.
I second that.
welcome in france….hahahahaha.
Did anybody try and figure out the context of all this? IIU is a place where female students are coerced to wear Burqa in more than one ways and many a time by their professors. Imagining this place as a symbol for women on whether or not to wear Burqa is pretty un-informed. On top of that, if somebody tries to support the coerced using a common-sense and obvious argument such as Hoodbhoy's, I think we should thank him not incarcerate him based on personal freedoms of the Burqa clad without knowing how many of them come to wear it. I expect more of Dr. Awab.
Aamer – I dont think you understood my point – it was NOT to question the validity of Burqa / or a Shariah issue if that were the case – what concerns me is that a liberal thought scholar like Dr, Hoodbhooy should and will understand issue associated with the free-will of thought and the free-will of a persons right to dress – why should a veil be the concern of an educator?
He instead should be the person challenging the women to have the will to stand up for their own sense of freedom whatever it may be, be it liberation from the veil or something else.
Bottom line is Who cares how they dress – focus on educating them. If the veil proves to be a hindrance in them liberating them then our learned professor must devise more ways to forcibly help them be vocal irrespective of their inhibitions
Well you do have a point but your article doesn't show the balance in your opinion about both kinds of coercion and starts sounding like an apologist – pardon my labeling – who doesn't really believe in the other freedom (of not wearing a hijab/dopatta at all).
As for why Dr. Hoodbhoy should be concerned, he did give a simple argument for that. As a matter of fact, the face veil is mostly considered not obligatory but still promoted by saying "what's the harm when you can be more careful?" Here, what's needed is a reasonable argument showing that harm (which is actually correct IMHO). It's a pretty reasonable way of balancing the coercion from the other side.
In any case, I wonder why nobody has discussed the poor soul's actual argument? I mean, how does a teacher access which student to "poke" back into concentrating on the material at hand or to explain some point again when the class "seems" confused? By reading their facial expressions. I don't know if somebody can read that from the eyes?
If nobody has a problem with removing the veil for Passport photos and the Passport office is not criticized for forcing that when they have a genuine reason, how does an eminent professor lose the right for a similar comment when he has a genuine reason (unless somebody is not really interested in being reasonable)?
I was zealous to say something on this topic. But, when it comes to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, my heart beats miss some and my eyes get filled with teardrops. Dr. Hoodbhoy is a big name in nuclear physics, he is our asset. This soft spoken person is made sit in talk show as a decoration piece. What a comedy of error. Every time he opens his mouth and hardly spells out some words, he is cut off either by Anchor or by another participant.
I have a point and vision on the question of Burqah in educational instutions, but like I said, when it comes to this doctor, I just can't speak, I can't differ. I can only adore this great man. Shia, Sunny, Aga Khani, Bohra, or any other sect for that matter does not stop me to love this man.
u have made hoodbhoy quite Dogmatic and godly. lol. I pity you.
many ordinary users say me the same, you are no exception.
@Khalid!
Isn't it too much?
calling a person like pervez hoodbhoy an asset!
did you mean asset for enemies?
or may be there is some dictionary problem?
may be in your dictionary asset means bullshit…
Khalid Humayun,
Yeah he may be great in Physics, but does it give him an authority to speak on any matter that he likes?
I guess if Newton was born in our country you guys would have made a god of him.
@QaimKhani
He's speaking about the class room and being a teacher for over 3 decades gives him the right to do so. I would like to hear somebody show that his argument is actually incorrect rather than making it about their perceptions of his personality.
@all,
Hell, is anybody opposing his thoughts actually interested in refuting his precise argument?
@Aamer!
First tell me,who the hell hoodbhoy is?
is he a socialogist or psychologist?
he is a nuclear scientist(unlike Dr.Abdul Qadeer Khan)trusted,promoted and "listened" by western media.
what is his services for Pakistan in nuclear field?except being a hostile witness and opposer of nuclear programme of Pakistan.
My questions for pervez hood bhoy and his supporter are:
what are the basis on which he claimed that effective communication is affected by hijab? Did he measure the communicating skills of the hijab observing girls? Did he perform some tests? did he conducted interviews with hijab observing girls?
The hijab observing ladies i know have an excellent communication skills. They are consultants, doctors,IT engineers, teachers and excellent debaters.
and more importantly the fundamental question that is:
how it is established that the bad communication between male and female students is bad for any thing which is necessary for the society or individuals? because many ordinary pakistani like me have a very bad impression of "good" communication skills due to PRACTICAL reasons.
Mr. Jawwad,
He's a professor and he's talking about the class room. What are your basis for concluding the opposite other than your "practical" reasons (if 'm reading the hidden meaning right) which have nothing to do with the class room. I repeat my argument, how does a teacher assess how the students are taking the material being taught in-class? My experience on both sides of the rostrum points to facial expressions. If you have a way of doing that behind the veil, fine with me.
And again repeating myself, his argument doesn't have anything to do with your or western media's preconceptions about him. In fact your mention of such irrelevant stuff and not actually answering the argument shows some motives subtler than just understanding and reasoned criticism of what the professor is saying.
I already told you that i know many hijab observing ladies and they DO NOT have ANY communication problem.
Didn't you ever talk to a hijab observing girl?
My personal experience says that the girls with hijab are more active in debates,discussions and questioning than the girls do not cover their faces. i observed a hasitation in eye contact and anxious sluggishness in discussion in the girls who do not wear a hijab.(i am talking about an average normal Pakistani girl not the ultramodern butterflies)
I suggest you to try for yourself.30 year experience behind the rostrum is not necessary to know these things.
i don't know the psychological explaination but the fact is women feel much better and confident behind the veils.May be because her look doesn't bother her in the public.
it gives a respect and security from vulgarity and harassment of men. This is a very common phenomenon in Pakistani society.men do not tease a women with hijab exept in vengeance. How can we talk more on this issue when you deny this simple and every day fact of our society?
I have two simple points based on simple every day observation.
1) hijab gives a woman more confidence.
2) hijab gives a respectable identity to a woman.
Saying that hijab hampers a good communication,doesn't make sense to me.
what part of professor-reads-facial-expressions is not getting through? It may or may not be a problem for the lady wearing it, it's a problem for a teacher nonetheless. Why is it being ignored? Secondly why the fact that IIU professors coerce their students into wearing the Hijab is being ignored by all the "freedom lovers" when it comes to Hoodbhoy is beyond me!
Protection? Nice argument by secular pakistan http://secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/b…
Respectable identity you say, what a shame would it be if I need to cover myself up to gain respect. That would be big problem for me personally. How would you feel about having to cover yourself in order to get "respect"? My dear, not getting respect from the male chauvinists should not be fixed by changing the lady but rather by changing the male mind.
Anyway, the basic point has not been answered, the rest is just dragging the discussion, so 'm out.
Mr. Adnan,
I went to a school run by Jamat-e-Islami. Something that will not fit into your caricatures of what you call 'liberal fascists'
i think the professor is right such kind of behavior in working environment is just like killing the light for other employees or closing the tap of communication from one side …
Yeah this jacka$$ is same worth of an asset as was Musharraf and as is Kiyani or Zardari…
Pakistan has been ruled by similar pathetic a$$holes for far too long.
Angrez naa jaatey agar unko kaley angrezon per bharosa naa hotaa.
Psycho Professors,
Doing research under a professor is not an easy task.
What do they think if some students are working under their guidance, should the students live their lives according to their likes and dislikes?
Not all, but some profs think they OWN their students.
Dear Prof,
You may be smart and a *boss* but please don't tell me how to live my life and don't try to enforce your way or highway.
Burqa is only for the protection of women in Pakistan. If it hinders effective communcation, so be it.
I don't agree with Pervez Hoodhboy, but if muslims think that France is taking away their right, then so be it.
The problem with all liberals is that they are desprate in finding a subtitute hero of Dr.Abdul Qadeer Khan that is why they are trying hard for building a non existing image of people like Dr.abdul salam and choorha lika pervez hoodbhoy (i swear i wont give the name pervez to any of my son)
What does AQ khan has to do with Hoodbhoy not liking the burqa? One thing all these so called "pure muslims" are good at is dragging an issue to a completely different direction. I have a name suggestion for your son, how about fazlullah? or Baitullah Mehsud.
MOZ-ay!
just shut up….
MOZ,
Good suggestion, I will keep that in mind and hope that they would live up to their names too 🙂
and you can name your son Bush and your dauther as Conda Liza Rice, or Salman Rushdie or Musailma Kezzab or AbuJahal or Ghulam Kafir…..
I think you wouldn't like to have more than 2 kids, so the list is big enuf fr 2.
I wonder why the Islam-mongering burka-women go to the co-educational universities when Islam forbids women even going out of house without being accompanied by a 'Mehram' male.
I agree. Veil Clad Women should follow Islam and shouldn't go to CO-Education Institutes. If Burqa/Veil clad still insist to study in Co-Education Institutes then tolerate the norms of Co-Education system [Un-Islamic], even the voice of Awrat [Women] is not to be heard by unknown male members what to talk of studying in Co-Education. Those Girls should be respected for observing veil and should clearly be told that Mix Gathering of Man and Woman [co-education] is also not Islamic. Detailed note on Islamic Veil is as under: Ansar Abbasi, Unveiled GEO TV Female Announcers/Newscasters/Hostess/Anchors & The News International. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/04/ansar-ab…
Young Hunks clad in Jeans could be source of "Fitnah" for Veil Clad Women, tight clothes for men are also Un-Islamic and should be banned from every Co-education institute.
Relaying Cricket from TV Channels should also be banned because Cricketers wear tracksuits and these attire are not decent [rather Un-Islamic] to be seen by Veil Clad Women. Pakistani Cricketers, Hockey Players, Squash Players should play and practice their sport in Islamic Dress to avoid "Fitnah" amongst Veil Clad Women and if this is not possible then every sport which is played in Un-Islam Dress should also be declared Unlawful.
readinglord and Amir LU_C_EE,
You guys have wadera_mind_set. You want women to do what you want, You can not tolerate someone praticing what they believe.
I bet you can tolerate it if it was not Islam or anything against Islam.
May Allah curse your lives in this world and hereafter, Ameen.
This is all I got to say for pathetic morons, who claim to be educated.
The closure was announced on Friday after violence broke out following the death of a student, Adnan Abdul Qadir, who died after being severely beaten by members of the Islami Jamiat Talaba. Upon hearing of Qadir’s death, members of the Pakhtun Students Federation and the Bannu Students Federation launched protests against the IJT which, unsurprisingly, turned violent and ended with protesters smashing their way into the rooms of the students nominated in the case and damaging university property. Campus intimidation Dawn Editorial Monday, 22 Mar, 2010 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-…
ubaidsolangi says: March 23, 2010 at 6:54 am readinglord and Amir LU_C_EE, You guys have wadera_mind_set. You want women to do what you want, You can not tolerate someone praticing what they believe. I bet you can tolerate it if it was not Islam or anything against Islam. May Allah curse your lives in this world and hereafter, Ameen. This is all I got to say for pathetic morons, who claim to be educated.
===================================
Dear Mr Ubaid,
We both could be wrong in our opinion but invoking "Curse of Allah" upon Kalima Reciting Muslims [We both are Kalima Reciting Muslims] is not allowed in Islam.
Since you talked of Islam and simultaneous you have also send "Curse of Allah on us" therefore you must read this and repent because if we didn't deserve the curse then ultimately your own curse will return to you and we don't your loss in any way. The act of cursing is such that one who does it can himself become a recipient of it.
Narrated Abu Darda (May Allah be pleased with him), ‘Allah’s Messenger Mohammad (PBUH) said, ‘When a person curses (La’nah; to ask that something be deprived of Allah’s Mercy) somebody or something, the curse goes up to the heaven and the gates of the heaven are closed. Then it comes down to the earth and its gates are closed. Then it turns right and left, and if it does not find an entrance to go anywhere, it returns to the person or thing that was cursed, if he or it deserves to be cursed; otherwise, it returns to the person, who uttered it.’ [Abu Dawood] Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) also warned, ‘Those who frequently resort to cursing would neither be accepted as witnesses nor as intercessors on the Day of Resurrection.’ [Saheeh Muslim]
Narrated Samurah Ibn Jundub (May Allah be pleased with him], ‘ Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said, ‘Do not curse one another, invoking curse of Allah or Wrath of Allah or the fire of Hell.’ [Abu Dawood, and Tirmidhi]
To curse a Muslim is akin to killing him. Allah’s Messenger [PBUH] said, ‘Cursing a believer is like murdering him.’ [Agreed upon – Riaz As Saleheen]
Narrated Abu Hurayrah (May Allah be pleased with him), ‘A drunkard was brought to the Prophet (PBUH). He said, ‘Give him a beating.’ Then some beat him with their hands, some with their shoes, and some with (a folded) piece of cloth. When he left, someone said to him, ‘May Allah disgrace you!‘ The Prophet (PBUH) said, ‘Do not help Shaytan overcome him by uttering such words.’ [Bukhari]
Narrated Ibn Mas’ood (May Allah be pleased with him), ‘Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, ‘A true believer is not involved in taunting, or frequently cursing or in indecency or abusing.” [Tirmidhi]
Narrated Abu Hurayrah (May Allah be pleased with him), ‘Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, ‘When two persons indulge in abusing each other, the beginner will be the sinner, so long, as the oppressed does not transgress the limits.’ [Saheeh Muslim]
@Amir Mughal!
Thanks for the detail response.
I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
Amir Mughal,
dude, I'm not endorsing ubaid, but you seem to lecture a lot about Quran and Hadith.
Lecturing others is very easy, and with cut/paste function what are you trying to accomplish? Thats not the only purpose of Quran and Hadith.
It would be wise for you to practice before you preach.
Look at your own face, can any one find something that resembles the sunnah of Muhammad (S.A.W.W)?
Don't forget Muhammad S.A.W.W told Muslim men to grow beard and shorten moustaches. Now check yourself.
BTW, if you are adamant at practicing what you like, then please do not force others to embrace your opinion and live by your standards. This is called hyporacy.
Secondly, taking veil is sha-air of Islam, if you would mock the sha-air of Islam, then the curse may really fit you right.
So fear Allah and don't mock right-traditions of Muslims.
Dear Heehaa,
You can endorse Ubaid and include your curse upon me as well. I didn't lecture at all rather I gave my opinion where did force my views on anybody?? Where did I mock the Veil??? Rather I just clearly pointed out the Quranic Verse and Hadiths regarding Veil and Mix Gathering of women and men even if the women are in veil is abhorred in Islam. Regarding Beard, I know it is Sunnah and I pray to Allah to give me a chance [Tawfeeq] to grow beard regarding Mustaches: go and read the Hadiths on Mustaches {trimming is the word) not removing it altogether. You can check my musctaches closely by checking out the upper lip. If I don't or others don't have a Beard and big mustaches even then you and others have no right to send Curse of Allah upon us.
So fear Allah and don’t mock right-traditions of Muslims.
=================================
If you have little time to spare from your Fatwa Mongering of Kufr against Fellow Muslim then read your own line above. Veil is not Right Tradition of Muslim but Allah's Order in Quran and Hadith.
March 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm – @Amir Mughal! – Thanks for the detail response. – I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
====================
Dear Jawwad Sahab,
Did Prophet Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] curse Abdullah Bin Ubbi Al Salool??
Aamir,
YOu know what Allah told Muhammad S.A.W.W about praying for Salool?
So are you putting yourself in the same shoes of Abdullah Bin Salool???
BTW, how would Allah give you Taufeeq, when you yourself don't want it? There is no compulsion.
or are you suggesting that the razors get up themselves and shave your beard? or are you saying (nauzoo billah) that Allah gave taufeeq to the razors, but not you?
March 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm – @Amir Mughal! Thanks for the detail response. I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
================================
Instead of Cursing why don't we try this:
ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ
Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright. [AN-NAHL (THE BEE) Chapter 16 Verse 125]
(muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude) [Dr Jawwad Khan]
====================
Cursing a Sinner who is Muslim:
Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] forbade cursing Abdullah Bin Mimaar who used to drink wine, even though he had cursed the wine-drinkers in general; however cursing a specific person if he is an evildoer or promoter of bid’ah is a point of dispute among the scholars. [Reference: Majmu al-Fatwa Ibn Taymiyah]
dr jawwad khan says: March 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm @Amir Mughal!
Thanks for the detail response. I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
=========================
Dear Jawwad Sahab,
What Mr heehaa, Mr Ubaid, Mr Talkhaba, Guysir and particularly you as well in many threads have basically issued a "Fatwa of Takfeer" [Decree of Apostasy] against a Kalima Reciting Muslims [no doubt a sinner but still a Muslim] and now read…
Whoever offers prayers as we do and turns his face to our Qiblah and eats the animal slaughtered by us, he is a Muslim for whom is the covenant of Allah and the covenant of the Messenger of Allah; so do not violate Allah's covenant." [Sahih Bukhari]
“Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.''(Sunnan Abu Dawood)
“Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.''(Bukhari)
“Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah' — do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah' as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.'' (Tabarani, reported from Abdullah Ibn Omar)
If the above Hadiths do not satisfy then read this!
Usaamah bin Zaid reported,
“Allaah’s Messenger sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we overwhelmed him, he said, “La ilaha illal-Lah.” On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) came to know about that and he said:
"O Usaamah! Did you kill him after he had said “La ilaha ilal-Lah?” I said, “But he said so only to save himself.” He kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islaam before that day. [Agreed upon, and this is the wording of Bukhari]
and in another version in Sahih Muslim about the same incident:
“Did you tear open his heart to see what was in it?'' [Muslim]
From a narration in Usadul Ghaba fi Ma'arifatus Sahaba by Ibn Athir [Lions of Jungle – Companions]: Mistakenly Hazrat Khalid Bin Waleed [May Allah be pleased with him] killed some people who were not supposed to killed and when this news reach to Prophet Mohammad [PBUH], he [PBUH] prayed by raising towards Sky to Allah "O Allah I am free from this act of Khalid.
Now you all can issue Fatwa of Kufr [Apostasy] against me or anybody you like at your own risk.
dr jawwad khan says: March 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm @Amir Mughal!
Thanks for the detail response. I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
=========================
If the name praises oneself, as in the case of Barrah (pious), the Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] said "Do not praise yourself. Allah knows the pious ones more than you do." (Muslim)
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (May Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) say:
The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [ The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied – you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Quran. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Quran for Your sake. He will say: You have lied – you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: He is learned. And you recited the Quran that it might be said [of you]: He is a reciter. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I left no path [untrodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake. He will say: You have lied – you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: He is open-handed. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Muslim, Tirmidhi and Nasa'i]
dr jawwad khan says: March 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm @Amir Mughal!
Thanks for the detail response. I have only one question. Can we curse a MUNAFIQ? (muslim by name and birth but enemy of Islam by attitude)
========================
Dear Jawwad Sahab and all of your Co-Takfeeris i.e. Mr heehaa, Mr Ubaid, Mr Talkhaba, and Guysir.
I hope you have no power to read the thoughts in Heart [Only Allah knows]
Narrated Abu Hurairah: Allah’s Messenger said, “A Muslim is brother to a Muslim. He should neither deceive him nor accuse him of lying, nor leave him without assistance. Everything belonging to a Muslim is inviolable for a Muslim; his honour, his blood and property. Piety is here (and he pointed out to his chest thrice). Despising one’s Muslim brother is enough evil for a person.” (Tirmidhi)
@ Amir Mughal!
thanks for saving me answering your question.Nabi e Kareem(saw) cursed many times and He (saw) left his curse open till the judgement day for many many "kalima reciting muslims" by cursing tattoing, use of artifical hair, usuary,Picture makers and others.
So saying that cursing a "kalima reciting" muslim is prohibited is not entirely correct.
you said:
"Dear Jawwad Sahab and all of your Co-Takfeeris i.e. Mr heehaa, Mr Ubaid, Mr Talkhaba, and Guysir….."
We see and interact many adulterer , drinker and those who take the interest.i am sure every one does the same.We never did takfeer against them….Question is why so many people believe that you are a —-? why,despite of your frequent quotes from Quran and Hadith you are perfectly aligned with seculars,liberals and Islamophobes?
So saying that cursing a “kalima reciting” muslim is prohibited is not entirely correct. [Dr Jawwad]
===================
Reference please
Question is why so many people believe that you are a —-? [Dr Jawwad Khan]
======================
Dear Jawwad Sahab,
I am not answerable to them because they are not Allah. I am answerable to Allah only and He is the Judge. It could be your and you Co-Tafeeris opinion that "I am perfectly aligned with seculars,liberals and Islamophobes" and I don't think so.
dr jawwad khan says: March 23, 2010 at 5:09 pm @ Amir Mughal! Question is why so many people believe that you are a —-? why,despite of your frequent quotes from Quran and Hadith you are perfectly aligned with seculars,liberals and Islamophobes?
================
Question is why they are worried about my faith instead of their own in the light of this:
وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى وَإِن تَدْعُ مُثْقَلَةٌ إِلَى حِمْلِهَا لَا يُحْمَلْ مِنْهُ شَيْءٌ وَلَوْ كَانَ ذَا قُرْبَى
Nor can a bearer of burdens bear another’s burdens if one heavily laden should call another to (bear) his load. Not the least portion of it can be carried (by the other). Even though he be nearly related. [FATIR (THE ANGELS, ORIGNATOR) Chapter 35 – Verse 18]
أَلَّا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى
وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَى
That no laden one shall bear another’s load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, [AN-NAJM (THE STAR) Chapter 53 – Verse 38 and 39]
Amir Mughal,
So you have issued your own fatwa that I am a takfiree because I asked you not to lecture others when you are not practicing yourself.
If you feel and pratice that viel-ed women should not go to co-education institution then GO TELL THIS TO YOUR KHALIFAH, ASIF ALI ZARDARI TO MAKE SCHOOLS FOR THOSE WOMEN, instead of urging those women to not go to CO-ED schools.
You know, you can play these tricks and these cut/paste abilities to impress your fellows in JACOBABAD, but these literates of Karachi (Cities) would not fall for your gimmicks.
If your intentions are good then don't fear the curse, but if you are playing tricks then fear the worse.
Where did I lecture or enforced my views on others show me the text. Cut and Paste is better instead of writing comment without reference. Who are you to decide about Intentions because it is between Man and Allah, and
heehaa says: March 24, 2010 at 7:04 am Aamir, YOu know what Allah told Muhammad S.A.W.W about praying for Salool? So are you putting yourself in the same shoes of Abdullah Bin Salool???
Aamir: No I don't know, What did Allah tell Mohammad [PBUH] about Abdullah bin Ubbi? Please enlighten us and you may think whatever you like about me, I am least bothered. Hypocrites have these signs: Four traits whoever possesses them is a hypocrite and whoever possesses some of them has an element of hypocrisy until he leaves it: the one who when he speaks he lies, when he promises he breaks his promise, when he disputes he transgresses and when he makes an agreement he violates it. [Bukhari and Muslim]
Now go and read the messages/posts posted by Dr Jawwad and others and read the last sign because most of the time they resort to verbal abuse.
heehaa: BTW, how would Allah give you Taufeeq, when you yourself don’t want it? There is no compulsion. or are you suggesting that the razors get up themselves and shave your beard? or are you saying (nauzoo billah) that Allah gave taufeeq to the razors, but not you?
Aamir: Ask Allah not me.
If quoting a Quran/Hadith is issuing a Fatwa then May Allah help all of us, read what Dr Jawwad, Talkhaba, Qaimkhai, Ubaid, and many others have uttered against me or anybody who doesn't agree with their opinion, they are very quick to declare anybody an "Enemy of Islam and Muslim" therefore such behaviour is called Takfiri Behaviour. If you don't agree then you can read about their Signs in the Chapter regarding "Khawarij" in Hadiths.
Nations and societies are recognized through code of ethics, mannerism ,level of education ,its reflection in practical life, standard of cleanliness, implementation of legal system and law abiding temperament.Burqah clad ladies and long beard men are not only limited option for showing the Islamic society but should be respectable personal choice.
We as a nation never emphasized on moral and ethic building habits as per teachings of Islam but taken no time to follow narrow minded options to represent Islam.
Blasphemy law, punishing and suppressing weak genders/classes,no check and balance for rulers and elite class,strengthen of armed mafia culture even in religious parameters all are showing tremendous rise in last many years so such debate initiated from Karachi blogger whose mode of action is same as liberals like Pervaiz hoodbhoy is little bit of surprise.If such an issue would have been triggered by some jammati and tableeeghi group then I would respond it differently.
Any how there is no doubt about the sincerity and professional authenticity of Dr Pervaiz in his field.
He could have been part of racket like Aqkhan due to high demand of Pakistani nuclear scientists in underworld market of illegal arms and nuclear technology but he maintained his repute as anti extremist and anti militarism in the Islamic republic of Pakistan.
Burqah no way present the modesty of lady in the society but somehow shows that she is insecure even in Muslim society where men take her as piece of enjoyment, nothing more than it.
As a socially active lady I also consider this veil as hurdle in communication because face gestures are very necessary to read during arguments and lecturing and its reflection set the direction of any discussion.Face gestures are simple measure of communication and character of any person without saying a single word and doing action.
Words further enhance the nature to understand the humans you handling in daily life .
aahhhh khala,
Burqah no way present the modesty of lady in the society but somehow shows that she is insecure even in Muslim society where men take her as piece of enjoyment, nothing more than it.
So you got the authority to declare that Burqah is no way to present the modesty of a lady….wow!!!
Khala, first of all tell me where is the Muslim Society? I want to go there, is it LUMS, IBA, Karachi University, Lahore University or Khazdar University or Chandka Medical College. Please give me the address.
Secondly, the women who choose to not wear hijab are insecure, because they think that men are to be attracted by showing the curves. They feel insecure about their intellectual capacity and the only way they can impress man is by showing off their figures.
Third, please leave waziristan for a month and visit any country in the world, not just western and then tell me if that man in those NON-MUSLIM societies do not take women as a toy for enjoyment. I'm not talking about gays, I'm talking about MEN.
Either you socialize around gay man or you are not attractive at all.
Bill Clinton couldn't stop himself from flirting and …..
Tiger Woods couldn't stop himself from adultery……
JF Kennedy was a womanizer….
Eliot Spitzer, ex Governor of NewYork couldn't stop himself from adultry— Just read the profile of this great guy
here is one for you..
http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/news/Sexual%20Abuse_NewsW…
So what happened here in the NON-MUSLIM world?
or do you want examples of women who were not in Hijab in the universities, where there professors communicated more than the apparent face?
You guys live in lala-land, as soon as something comes around to bash Islam and Muslims, you guys get active with full steam.
Nothing turns you ON more, than bashing Islam and Muslims.
Pity for you, angrez chaley gaey, tummm jaison ko chorr gaey..
Any how there is no doubt about the sincerity and professional authenticity of Dr Pervaiz in his field.
_________________________________________________________
good joke
Dr khan
this is your level of sense of humor not mine
so kindly excuse me
Bheetejay
You are always top on loose talk more than my expectation.
If you cant judge my perception then don't jump purposelessly in discussion.
My point is very very simple and on personal basis too.
Human illegal and erotic desires cant be limited under any strict law or spaces we called segregation.
When human minds like you have strong tendency of tripping they would slip down their moral character either it could be office of white house or hujrah of spiritual leaders.
This burqah and beard culture have no influence in developing human character and moral values but just used as symbol of presentation of any followers.
You have given live example of popular characters but forget to mention end results and it is
extreme guilt and regrets,loss of trust of their love ones and setting of bad repute just because due to their open confession.
Why Muslim leaders having beard and orthodox never ever confessed such crimes , while invloving in it in their different phases of life.
Just because of this artificial shield that comes from religious living styles.
Muslim professors never ever dare to object any lady to veil off as it is against the norms and I am telling my personal experience that I can easily judge the human nature and personality while observing face gestures so people who adopt the profession of teaching might have another parameters to judge the capability of human minds without seeing faces.At least I become very uneasy while talking to burqha clad ladies.
Yes I again stand on my point that in true islamic society women should be secured regardless of her confinement under face cover or limited to specific boundaries.I have watched ladies moving in western dresses in some Muslim countries in train, taxis late at night and even in remote areas without any fear of attack.I dream for this culture that where Muslim woman is not harassed by forced cover up just for keeping streamline men erotic abnormal abnormalities.
I am socializing abnormal person like you all the time and very well aware how to keep my self maintained in limits while moving in public places where cheap men like?? are all time roaming to pass their free time for free watch of ladies on the street.
I hope you get your dose for another one week.
understand ??
Nazia,
I shouldn't have called you khala, your mind is obviously not older than a 10 year old feminist.
Your logic is crooked, first you said Muslim women take veil to safeguard themselves from Muslim man. When presented with some of the facts about Non-Muslim man caught cheating, then you come about point-less attacks on burqa and beard.
"This burqah and beard culture have no influence in developing human character and moral values but just used as symbol of presentation of any followers".
Ok, tell me what attracts you to man? Clean shaved or the one with long beard? Doesn't beard take away flirting? I mean have you seen woman who would flirt with a long bearded guy?
Or do you not mind flirting as long as it does not go beyond that? You make your own standards and then blame others for being *cheap*…
In the same way, we man (MUSLIM and NON-MUSLIM) crave for the curves, if we don't see it, we don't give a second look.
DO YOU GET IT????
If your masters were practicing veil or were wearing beards you would go miles to praise and adore their acts.
NO Body is telling you to wear Hijab that is your choice but do not admonish people who are practicing what they believe.
Observing facial expression IS NOT THE PARAMETER to judge a student. How many times did you get an A, because your teacher looked at your face and realized that you know the subject and hence do not need to take the exam. Ridiculus!!
Good Teachers devise exams and probing questions to judge the performance of a student. They don't grade students based on their faces or curves.
Dear Prof. (Bey)Hoodabhi,
you obviously missed some important classes when you were growing up. Trust me its never late, get some common-sense growing classes and find that brain is a mervellous thing it can still learn at an older age.
Chuotto
I really have no complex about my status as khala, aunty or even granny as I enjoy all phases and relations of life.
Whether my comments look you crooked or brooked but it is based on my personal perception and experience .
Placing women under veil , burqahs and keeping her into specifc boundaries is showoff of her insecure status in any society.It is also symbol of man dominance to his ladies under his power domain and then it was tried to impose on women community through religious belief.
Tell me one little query that in hottest weather of Saudia why men picked white and comfortable color for himself and women have been choice by fully black robe from head to toe.
If you would probe then you would get clue of it.
You are quite right hope first time that
we man (MUSLIM and NON-MUSLIM) crave for the curves, if we don’t see it, we don’t give a second look,
For your all time craving for the curves even in last ages when you loose sight and diet desire, you people prefer to die for latest feminine curves for keeping you young and alive.
That was the one reason Muslims due to their possessives and orthodox nature prefered to keep women under cover.
Flirting and making extra martial love affairs are not in dictionary of any normal Muslim women and we have to keep this standard of ethics as asset with us to our graves for maintaining the stability and morality of any society/culture.
If we leave this responsibility on specie like you or behave like men then Allah Allah kher shalla
In this case next generation would always be in search of real passions and pure behaviors in normal life.
Yes I have seen lot of long beard men flirting the ladies in their own style.It looks funny to people to us but it is happening all around us and other Muslim countries.
In Casablanca Parks and beach sites I have seen khulle dully (open style) dating and abnormal physical gestures of long beard men and completely burqah wearing women same as we see in western cultures while dating.
our maluvis while teaching Quran to girl students are also found involved in such moral activities.
So you are badly in need of more exposures and experiences in coming days for broadening your vision.
Again I am emphasizing that veil choice should be placed on personal choice but in our system it is imposed due to insecure factor around womenfolk just like that a small male child and only name of a man attached to women is used as mark of strength of that women to protect her from beastly character.
You people are not interested to tame the beast but prefer to captivate hunt of beast under cage.
Nazia you say:
"Placing women under veil , burqahs and keeping her into specifc boundaries is showoff of her insecure status in any society"
And then you say: "Again I am emphasizing that veil choice should be placed on personal choice"
You seem confused. If it's a personal choice than what is the problem? Who are you to decide on the part of all women in Pakistan that they are being forced to wear the veil & therefore should not be allowed to wear it as Mr. Hoodboy seems to be suggesting?
Let those who want to wear it wear it & those that don't want to wear it not wear it. What the hell are you debating about?
Secular extremists who want to force their opinion on these things are no different from religious extremists who want to impose all personal aspects of religion on people.
You are right that wearing a veil or sporting a beard does not in any way reflect the character of the person. Many people wear a veil because of religious reasons but many wear for cultural compulsions as well & many do just to hide behind these things.
But would people like Pervez Hoodboy & secular extremists campaign just as vigorously against girls overly exposing their bodies or wearing revealing clothes? I am sure then their argument would be that its a personal choice. They will come out all guns blazing that no one has the right to force a woman on what to wear.
Western culture is not exactly something that anyone of us should be aspiring to. They have not liberated woman but rather objectified them.
We should however try and remove the hypocrisy in our own society.
Al says: March 26, 2010 at 4:44 pm Quaid-e-azam himself was an ismaili
=================
Not Ismaili but Shia and there is a big difference between Shia [believe in 12 Imams] and Ismaili [Believe in 7 Imams they believe in the Imamat of Ismail ibn Jafar Bin Baqar bin Ali Bin Hussein Bin Ali Bin Abi Tali and differ with Imamia 12 vers who follow Mosa Kazim (younger brother of Ismail) and remaining Imams from him generation]
Jinnah:
On 24 September 1948, after the demise of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, his sister Fatimah Jinnah and the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Liaquat Ali Khan, submitted a jointly signed petition at the Karachi High Court, describing Jinnah as ‘Shia Khoja Mohamedan’ and praying that his will may be disposed of under Shia inheritance law. On 6 February, 1968 after Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah'’ demise the previous year, her sister Shirin Bai, moved an application at the High Court claiming Fatimah Jinnah’s property under the Shia inheritance law on grounds that the deceased was a Shia. As per Mr. I. H. Ispahani who was a family friend of Jinnah, revealed that Jinnah had himself told him in 1936 that he and his family had converted to Shiism after his return from England in 1894. He said that Jinnah had married Ruttie Bai according to the Shia ritual during which she was represented by a Shia scholar of Bombay, and Jinnah was represented by his Shia friend, Raja Sahib of Mehmoodabad. He however conceded that Jinnah was opposed in Bombay elections by a Shia Conference canditate. Ispahani was present when Miss Fatima Jinnah died in 1967. He himself arranged the Ghusl and Janaza {Funeral Bath and Funeral} for her at Mohatta Palace according to the Shia Ritual before handing over the body to the state. Her Sunni Namaz-e-Janaza was held later at Polo Ground, Karachi after which she was buried next to her brother at a spot chosen by Ispahani inside the mausoleum. Ritualistic Shia talqin (last advice to the deceased) was done after her dead body was lowered into the grave. (Jinnah had arranged for talqin for Ruttie Bai too when she died in 1929). Allama Syed Anisul Husnain, a Shia scholar, deposed that he had arranged the gusl of the Quaid on the instructions of Miss Fatimah Jinah. He led his Namaz-e-Janaza in a room of the Governor General’s House at which such luminaries as Yousuf Haroon, Hashim Raza, and Aftab Hatim Alvi were present, while Liaquat Ali Khan waited outside the room. After the Shia ritual, the body was handed over to the state and Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, an alim belonging to Deoband school of thought known for its anti-Shia belief, read his Janaza according the Sunni ritual at the ground where the mausoleum was later constructed. Other witnesses confirmed that after the demise of Miss Fatimah Jinnah, alam and panja (two Shia symbols) were discovered from her residence, Mohatta Palace. Despite all this Jinnah kept himself away from Shia politics. He was not a Shia; he was also not a Sunni; he was simply a Muslim.
[PAKISTAN: Behind the Ideological Mask (Facts About Great Men We Don’t Want to Know) by Khaled Ahmed, published by VANGUARD Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. The Murder of History: A critique of history textbooks used in Pakistan by K.K. Aziz, published by VANGUARD Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad].
OK. I stand corrected. I had heard he was Ismaili. Have u checked this information from any other sources?
You write:
"As per Mr. I. H. Ispahani who was a family friend of Jinnah, revealed that Jinnah had himself told him in 1936 that he and his family had converted to Shiism after his return from England in 1894."
Converted from what?
Al says: – March 26, 2010 at 6:29 pm – OK. I stand corrected. I had heard he was Ismaili. Have u checked this information from any other sources?
===============
Sir, you got me there.
Converted from Ismaili Belief. I stand corrected.
Regards
The info is verified I know Isphahanis.
Mughal
Jinnah belong to such class of Pakistan who uses such symbolic religious norms either on birth, death and marriage time only.
In between the phases they prefer the marriage of convenience as per their desires for achieving their targets.
Throughout his life he adopted western life as he was gone to UK in very young age and this change was quite normal.But we people make our heroes through our imagination.He or she is not like that which we present in public or in history pages.
This is our tragic legacy and reason of morally downsizing nation with the passage of time.
If that is so then what was the need to take Panga of Pakistan.
Mughal
Ask him immediately when you would meet him in life after death phase.
I am not in position to respond you accurately as Islamic and nationalist hawks of Pakistan are closely monitoring me here to call me traitor after declaring me eligible candidate for applying blasphemy law .
Dear Ms. Nazia,
Not to worry.
Regarding Declaring somebody traitor in Pakistan is a Joke because Yahya received 21 Gun Salute, Wali Khan was and NAP was declared Traitor but Zia wound up the Hyderabad Tribunal, Mawdudi was declared Traitor and awarded death punishment but sentence was withdrawn therefore this tag of traitor travel in Pakistan as per the desires of Military Establishment. Regarding Blasphemy as per my humble and poor knowledge not a single post of your fulfill the criteria for the Case of Blasphemy therefore the Nationalist Hawks of Pakistan would have to work hard.
Mughal
Do I look you afraid of these so called scholars?
Not at all.
Actually such kind of verbal attacks remind me ladies daras culture where all women try their best to prove on each other that she is better Muslim than her neighbor.
Due to my slip tongue nature in these environment too I have faced same response which dr khan is expert by showing his talent and intellect.
An interesting incident happened once when I got so much bored when the lady preacher was telling the advantage of going to Jannat to us .
Throughout I heard 70 hoors will be awarded, with silk clothes, drinks of wine, sweets etc a typical incentives we were hearing since our childhood.
I just end my drowsiness state and dared to ask that lady 70 hoors are for men, I am not interested in silk clothes nor drinking wines so what would be my pieces of attraction.
I still know her words which is like that
Sharif aurthain ko koutary naninon waley(cup shaped) aadami milan gay jo masand(sofa) par taik laga kar bhaity hoon gay.
she quoted another verse which is something like that modest woman would get same husband with some kind of renovation.
After hearing such huge differences of awards I just retort that if Allah would again give us cup shape eyed men who will be sit like king and will order us to bring all in front of them as they do in this world.so what would be great change for us and what is award in this reward?
or 70 brand new hoors for men and same men with denting painting is again gifted to noble woman, sorry I couldnt understand this kind of justice.
You would understand that after such comments no body bothered me to invite in such kind of Muslim culture again.
At that moment I couldnt think deeply of such misconception but now can feel that we are brainwashed through such lectures where a male child grow up with concept of 70 hoors and wines and woman are awarded only for the same kind of man whom she spent her whole life in miserable condition in this world with patience and sacrifices.
This was the same theme on which Taliban and suicidal killers were trained in our soil.
Al
where you find me praising western culture regarding liberty of women beyond certain limits.
I am not confused but quite clear in my point of view that instead of imposing veil culture , one should be given choice by the system.
In UAE, libya and morocco women are allowed to move in all kind of dress codes and it is responsibility of state and men's culture that never create harassment situation for all kind of ladies.But in India pakistan, social and family pressures are developed on ladies to keep this traditon under religious obligations.
Oh yes some strong religious clerics have developed this concept so strong in young minds that they by choice pick this life styles ,no matters where ever they live in any part of world.I think that way of living is much better choice.
We cant get the exact data that how much girls and women happily take this family custom under pressure of men of family specially in our remote rural areas but majority in this era are not in its favor.So when they come out of their environment they react up to level of abnormality to lessen their frustration.
So in both cases the concept of personal choice,now should be clear to you and it has no link with my personal interest and choice.
Nazia:
UAE is not exactly a model for us to follow in Pakistan. Its like an artificial place & they are slowly losing their own culture.
And i believe we have to draw a line somewhere. Dress is a personal choice but to an extent – what should be that extent? I think that should be decided by consensus within the bounds laid down by our religion.
In some societies public nudity is tolerated – should we then assume that this should be acceptable since everything should be left to personal choice? How many of us would like our children to grow up in such an environment?
Even so called western liberal societies have certain boundaries – the difference is that their boundaries are determined by their culture which keeps on changing – Our boundaries should be dictated by our religion.
Nazia says: – March 27, 2010 at 1:06 am An interesting incident happened once when I got so much bored when the lady preacher was telling the advantage of going to Jannat to us .
Throughout I heard 70 hoors will be awarded, with silk clothes, drinks of wine, sweets etc a typical incentives we were hearing since our childhood. she quoted another verse which is something like that modest woman would get same husband with some kind of renovation.
========================
Dear Ms. Nazia,
She was right but she should have told you this that bad husband will be replaced by the good ones and above all why didn't she tell you this:
The Messenger of Allah, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, who said, "Paradise is surrounded by hardship and the Hellfire is surround by wishes and desires," has described the road to eternal bliss. [Sahih al-Jami]
Al
I am not comparing UAE as an ideal model and only giving an example that state is the reason of confidence of women to go any where, any time in any dress.Just 500 miles away in Saudi Muslim woman cant think like that.
So so your valid point that dress code should be personal choice and Islam has clearly defined dress code for men and women and only cultural aspects are included in Muslim countries that some time create differences of presentation among Muslim communities.
In Muslim society there is no place of nudity and unlimited exposure of woman in men environment.
Some women think it as strict hindrance but some think it is their strength that is why women are in more respectable place then in western culture where state has to intervene through strict state laws to come and protect her from negligence/ignorance of close relations.
Mughal
that is not point
My point was only that what is reason of so huge indifference of rewards in both genders.
What a male child can learn after hearing from cleric that 70 hoors are the biggest reward for a modest man in jannat.
Why wines are allowed in Jannat only and not in this world.
Why woman is awarded by same husband in jannat.
Such kind of projection of rewards in Islamic culture can be one of reason of our hypocrite styles and somehow consider as provoking incentives that trigger in this world due to all time discussion in religious circle.
Dear Ms. Nazia,
Let me write openly and please don't be offended. Would it be natural that single woman have 70 Husbands???? 70 hoors doesn't mean "Open Orgy". I have already told you that those women who didn't have nice husband or any husband at all would be provided those Husbands whose Wives were not good to them in this world. [Tafseer Ibn Kathri]
Why Wines are Halal here?
I never question rather I try to follow [as much as I can]
Nazia says: March 27, 2010 at 1:06 am This was the same theme on which Taliban and suicidal killers were trained in our soil.
===================
Blame this on those who are mentioned below:
Ronald Reagan, Afghan Mujahideen, Talibans & Royal Mess.
http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/03/ronald-r…
Mughal
There is nothing to offend as no one handle 70 husbands and wives in one life.
For muslin woman one modest man from this breed of infidel species of GOD is excellent asset and surely modest woman would only pray for that husband after her death if choice would be made to her.
This is quite natural and conceivable to human minds.
Same should be placed for men too but here diversions are provided which create lot of social indifference.
But my objections is only on projection of 70 hoors and wines like awards.
it is not meant to give him lullaby in jannat for sound asleep by proving them hoor and wine but surely fulfilling erotic demands.
It could have been projected as 70 angels too for his services but sorry to say it is promotion of men abnormal desires and I again repeat in rich Muslim circles such practice is followed on the name of prostitution or polygamy.
So whether you accept it or not but wine and woman are projected by clerics too and it triggers young male children to go for search of same which would be promise to given to them in heaven.
You are trying to ignore psychological effects of wrongly projected religious concepts on young minds which are being preached in our religious circles continuously for wrong male dominance features.
Nazia:
You write:
"It could have been projected as 70 angels too for his services but sorry to say it is promotion of men abnormal desires and I again repeat in rich Muslim circles such practice is followed on the name of prostitution or polygamy.
First of all these desires have nothing to do with being a muslim or non-muslim. Do you think christians & atheists don't have these desires? Is there no prostitution & other such social ills in non-muslim society?
Secondly, please name one religious authority or any person in these 'rich muslim circles' who justifies prostitution by using these verses of the Quran & Hadith. Yes many muslims do engage prostitutes just like men all over the world do but no one uses religion to justify it. They know its wrong.
And third, what would you prefer – a western society where men can go around sleeping with as many woman as they want & they will not be breaking any laws – but they cannot have more then one wife – as a consequence of which almost half the population there is born out of wedlock. Or an Islamic society where it is illegal for men to sleep with any woman unless he marries her – which means that he will HAVE to by law take care of her.
I know you will again claim that you are not recommending us to follow the western culture but by parroting these lines taken by western feminists you are doing exactly that.
Is it better to make it illegal for a person to have a second wife & in turn lead to a society where so many children are born out of wedlock or provide a legal way out so that the sanctity of marriage & family is maintained.
You first need to make an effort to understand your religion before starting criticizing everything.
The word hoor is the plural of ahwar (applicable to man) and of haura (applicable to woman) and
signifies a person having eyes characterized by hauar that denotes the intense whiteness of the white part of the spiritual eye.
The Quran describes in several verses that in paradise you will have azwaj which mean a pair or spouse or companion.
The word hoor has no specific gender. Mohammad Asad has translated the word hoor as spouse and Abdullah Yusuf Ali as companion.
The problem is in the translation & our own understanding not in the Quran & Hadith.
And the ulema & religious scholars are from amongst us – from our own society. As such they reflect the society we live in.
There should be criticism. Yes of course people have used culture disguised in the form of religion to subjugate women & people in general. But we should first understand our own religion instead of parroting the criticisms raised by western writers & 'intellectuals'.
@AL!
isn't that funny that people can accept the culture and traditions as a source of guidance but reject the ideology which guides, drives and gives a contour to these cultures and traditions.
dr khan
My living style is culture of my area and my acts are my traditions.
My religion give guidance and colors to pattern of my life and all are important part of my identity.
If you call me your marriage in mosque I might be relcutant.
But if you invite me in your colorful mehndi and marriage function as per our culture, I would love to come as such colors give me enjoyment.This is in my culture
I loved to attend tarwahi prayer in an Arab country where all women folk go to mosque on even eid day and beautiful gathering is seen but here in Pakistan I miss it as sometime I loose interest on it while praying alone.This is their traditions.
Arab woman cant stop his brother, father and husband for 2nd marriage as they are quite use to of this culture but we Asians highly dislike such acts as it is still not in good books of reasonable family circles.It is our culture.
I enjoyed marriage ceremonies of Arabs due to lot of music and dance, in which all age groups participate and enjoy it as family function but here in Pakistan such liberal colors are not seen and now have been converted into vulgar Indian movie culture.
So feel the difference between the beautiful norms of culture and strict religious laws which can give trend or tend to extremism in human nature only.
AL
No way I am discussing the matter in context of LOCAL culture and traditions.
All are being discussed as per Islamic preaching and teaching.
All desires of humans are common where ever you go in all religious circles.
So it shouldn't matter of objection that I am criticizing only Muslims.Being a Muslim I know weakness of my system better than others.I strongly feel that Islamic laws are mostly used to cover up the crimes of rich and ruling class and same why they get religious backup for fulfilling their negative desires through such provoking incentives.
Taliban breed is one of live example of such distortion of Islamic ideology and all was done under Muslim clerics and on Muslim land.
If you read christian history 100 years ago they also mishandled their religious obligations and used to suppress the lower class and passed lives with other code of conduct.
We are passing the same phase.
We have inherited hindu culture mix.
In which there is no concept of second wife and divorce.
They have taken few of our concepts in divorce matters .Even then 2nd marriage is not allowed in hindu culture.
Prostitution and red light area are ALSO part of our culture for last centuries and mostly fulfilled the requirement of so called noble man as rascals can bring women and wine at their homes but nobles cant adulterate their homes or tease their love ones like that and prefer to go there.
Dont worry about me and my knowledge about hoor culture as I am strong believer of GOD and have full faith that Allah cant do any kind of injustice to any of His creation but it is we human who drive His orders as per our our personal choices.
I am totally giving you trends of our society and its people whether you accept it or not.
My religion give guidance and colors to pattern of my life and all are important
______________________________________________
what religion you are talking about? I mean how it is possible that i could have a religion by disliking its practices? mehndi mayon is not the religion its a celebration of Nikah which is the key and center point of the whole show.the nikah which is ordered by Islam. It is really funny,its like saying that i do not like the cast, i do not like their acting, i do not like the story, i do not like the direction, i do not like the songs, i do not like the action or drama but i purchsed 10 CDs of that movie??? don't you think its funny?
I do not know what should i call you…
Liberal? no! i know the real liberalism is based on non affiliation with the religion not the hatred against the religion.
Secular? Again secularism tells us that religion is a private matter.Original secularism does not teach a hatred against religion….
Islamophobe? Even Islamophobia do not hate Islam as whole. it just hate the political side of the Islam.
I mean you are quite a new case to me…
You avoid the Nikah because its a religious cermony but you like to attend the mehndi and mayon….(love for the skin,hate for the body)…then what about funeral ceremony or visitng the sick? these occasions are said,with out color and more Islamic than the wedding ceremonies of our society.
Get some life lady…
Dr khan
I have given you such example to show you influence of culture on religious norms.
Mehndi like function give colors to religious ceremony and majority want to enjoy it altogether.
I used I term for trends of society in which majority is not interested in joining tableeghi jammmat all the time.
So cultural boundaries are also marked as restoration of lively living styles among different communities in same area.
There is nothing funny on it if it sometime clash with strict religious laws.
What ever you people say to me but I have no soft word for poly gamy in islamic culture.
How many of you choice widows/divorcee or rejected simple women when you are rich, unmarried or in strong position of taking decisions like that.
Holy Prophet mostly married to such women but Muslim men loved to follow his example of marriage to hazrat Ayesha only.
Second marriage and muttah like options were emphasis during war times but how many among you married to support shaeed's widow and his orphans.
Oh sure some of them do it but for grabbing her incentives in form of property and money granted to her from state.
I cant give you name of popular shaheeds whom widow were handled like that which I mentioned above and then divorced too but it is our normal practice.
Live people need physical and moral support only dead bodies and souls are in need of prayers and verbal praises If our society has any courage get the data how many widows and divorcees are rehabilitated by strong Muslim men.
Now from ladies desk .
After discussing to my ladies belong to different cultures, I hardly found a case where woman can think of allowing her husband for 2nd woman as wife.They can even tolerate keep or girl friend but no way such kind of legal permission is allowed happily by any woman.
So I mean to say that if man has strong urge that his wife should be faithful to him throughout her life than it is same desire of normal woman all over the world but through medical and religious constraints bar of mental pressure has been placed on Muslim woman only.Here men get escape root and sometime use to of back door channels which opens in prostitute house or for young girls under polygamy.
@Nazia: Where did i disagree with you that there is no prostitution & other social ills in our society? Read what i wrote again. I said yes there have always been these social ills in our society but no one has ever justified these using religion.
You have put polygamy in the same category as prostitution. You write:
"…..but sorry to say it is promotion of men abnormal desires and I again repeat in rich Muslim circles such practice is followed on the name of prostitution or polygamy."
I can only call this ignorance on your part – Read my previous reply & then tell me what would you rather prefer? And then would you still put polygamy & prostitution in the same category of 'abnormal desires'?
You write:
"…..why they get religious backup for fulfilling their negative desires through such provoking incentives."
So you are basically disagreeing with the Quran & Hadith where God promises a reward to those who live their lives according to His wishes because you think these are 'abnormal' and 'negative desires' (in your own words)?
Who is God promising these things to? To men & women who live a pious life in this world. How the hell can this be used to justify prostitution or other social ills? It is in fact the exact opposite incentive – to live a pious life in this world for a reward in the afterlife.
Yes i agree we have our own sub-continent culture & there is no harm in it as long as it is within the parameters laid down by our religion.
If you start to defend each & everything in the name of culture then that is not right. 'Vulgarity' is a very subjective concept. Everyone will have their own criteria of what they consider vulgar & what they don't consider vulgar. You feel that today's indian movie culture is vulgar but in 20 years time children bought up on these movies will not find a lot of these things vulgar. They will accept it as their culture.
What do you suggest we should do then? Accept it & defend it as our culture? Or should we judge culture in light of what our religion teaches us?
Agreed to the hilt.
Al
I am not disagreeing but surely pointing its projection in wrong way and mostly focused on giving privileges to strong classes of the community.
I can assure you that pious men and woman gets reward in this world too if they are strong believers of God's action regardless of its consequences in our lives.
Somehow if set back has come in the life of modest men or women then wihtout giving a second thought Allah and Quran has given them another solution/options for passing good and normal life with peace of mind.
So it is not matter of rewards and its extensions but clear indifference of standard between two genders made by same Creator .
Islam has clearly given the criteria between vulgar and modest way of living and change you are mentioning is evolution of human minds that is always synchronized with outer affects coming from nearby cultures.
Woman's character is simply judged by her way of dressing and man's through his eyes. and one can take few minutes to roughly judge what kind of man and women is in front of him.
So how much we blend with our odd traditions or others cultures, there is a certain limit for all extreme in any Muslim society.
Whatever it modifies but no way Islam allows extra martial relationship between two genders.
Woman and men dress codes are specifically cordon off in Muslim societies.
Illegitimate baby still unable to get any status in any Muslim country.
Women are always considered more secure under her legal heirs.
I am not suggesting butI am passing my live with simple such claims telling you here. Complexity and indifference in religious terms always make life difficult and people find different escape routes if they dont get justice in this world.
We have discuses men's illegal desires which get support from fake religious clutches but trying to avoid its side effects on their ladies as wives, daughters and sisters.It has more worst consequences if female comes in revenge mode or naturally acquire all abnormalities which she is seeing around us since her brought up.
So all unjustified and illegal actions whatever way it is protected by religious mark create reactions on others living in surrounding.So science has already proved that action and reactions are equal but create opposite force which producing thrust sometime destroys a family , a system or even community's standard of living.
That is basic reason of down fall of our human values.
Nazia: You are giving very disjointed arguments & seriously seem confused. First you placed polygamy in the same category as prostitution & now with muttah nikah which have nothing do with each other. The only thing you are sure of is that religion & Islam is to blame for everything.
As it is muttah nikah is not followed by Sunnis who happen to make up the majority of the muslim population. And within the Shia community too there are few who follow it. Half my family is Shia and i don't know of anyone who does. Personally i don't agree with the concept in present times because it can only be used to exploit women from poor backgrounds. No one from a well-off background would agree to give his daughter or sister in muttah nikah to anyone. So only the poor will end up being exploited.
As far as Polygamy is concerned, it was practiced before Islam & still is in many cultures of the world. Islam does not encourage polygamy – it only permits it. There is a big difference. And in our culture it is not common so its not even a major social issue that you are so worried about. I don't know of anyone personally who has more then one wife.
You have to make a distinction between the religion & its followers. You can criticize the followers for not following the religion correctly but you cannot make it a basis to criticize the religion unless you don't want to believe in it. That is your choice then. Everyone is free to believe what they want.
If people do not marry widows & divorcees & prefer unmarried women then that does not mean that the permission to marry more then one woman is to be blamed. If there was no such permission in Islam do you suggest men would magically start preferring widowed & divorced women over virgins? I fail to see the correlation. This is a social & cultural issue & should be dealt with accordingly. It has nothing to do with religion.
You don't have anything new to say here. You are just parroting what western feminists have said for a long time. And look what western societies have turned into. I have read that about 50% of the children in the United States are being bought up in single parent homes – i cannot vouch for the number but i am sure it will be pretty high.
In the US sleeping with as many women as you want & having children with them is not a crime but marrying more then one woman is a crime. Do you even realize the absurdity of these laws?
Men & women have equal rights but it does not mean they are equal. They are different physiologically & psychologically & have different needs. If you want equality in everything than be prepared to give up a lot of the rights you enjoy & live like women in the west where men prefer to live with women without marrying them.
What else could men want? They are getting their physical needs met without the added responsibility if they were to marry the woman. They can get up & leave anytime they want to leaving the woman to fend for herself & any children that they might have. Marriage would add to the responsibilities so why marry.
If you ask personally as a man i would definitely prefer such an arrangement. Who wouldn't? But i know these things lead to a breakdown of the family structure & a deterioration in society.
Do you think in societies where polygamy is illegal men don't have relationships with multiple women? Every other day we hear of some actor or sports star or politician in the US getting caught cheating on his wife. Why do they do it? Because they are in positions of power & wealth & there is no legal way around so they end up cheating.
So does banning polygamy solve the problem? Do you really think women are getting freedom this way?
You write: "After discussing to my ladies belong to different cultures, I hardly found a case where woman can think of allowing her husband for 2nd woman as wife.They can even tolerate keep or girl friend but no way such kind of legal permission is allowed happily by any woman."
I can agree with you that most women would rather prefer their husbands to be with them only but again that will not guarantee men will not cheat on their wives. Because those men who do have such urges & the means will most probably cheat because they do not have a legal way around the issue.
And again you are not thinking in broader terms. You are thinking in terms of being a wife what you would prefer. If i understand you correctly you say women would rather have their husbands keep girlfriends then have a legal relationship.
You completely miss the broader picture from the point of view of the society. Those mistresses & girlfriends are also women. They also have a right to live a respectable life & have a family & be taken care of. If you place a ban on polygamy it will only guarantee that all these women will not get their due rights in the society. It is never going to stop men sleeping with more then one woman if you want to achieve that.
We have both societies in front of us – those that ban polygamy & those that don't. You can take your pick.