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To Shave or Not to Shave, that is the Question

An event was to be held on the 30th of March 2010 at Hall 6 of Expo Center Karachi, to break India’s world record of most people shaving at the same time. The event was being sponsored by Gillette, a reputed shaving company, the event was advertised well & over 2000 people showed up at the venue on their own free will, voluntarily, to be part of the smooth shavng spree.

The Organizing committee started receiving threats a couple of days leading to the event by Maulana Fazl ur Rehman & his cronies who called upon them to shutdown or face the consequences. The Maulana is said to have threatened to send a truck load of Madaressah boys to take care of the world record attempt. The organizers contacted Rangers for security and support who declined to help because they could only be deployed at the request of governmental approval, in turn the organizers resorted to coordinating their security cordon with the local police station who promised support



The Bomb disposal squad checked and cleared the premises before noon. Entrance to the Expo center for the participants volunteers was on high protocol clearance and each person was carefully frisked and walked through metal detectors. After which each volunteer was registered at the reception desk and provided with a shaving kit

The police on the other hand cautioned each person to go at his own risk as there was a threat of bomb. Despite all the negativity there were over 2000 men and boys gathered up until the 2pm start time. Most of the protesters were gathering outside the premises at the main metal immediately after the afternoon prayers & started chanting slogans & religious rhetorical to dissuade people from going in .

Seeing their efforts to going in vain as most people walked past them into the expo center, they then sent around 200 of their own guys to mingle with the ‘normal’ crowd. The lunch was serve to all the participants, After devouring the free lunch, the two hundred or so antagonists started moving towards washrooms, looking at the sudden mass movement going in one direction the volunteers tried to redirect the crowd and requested them to be seated.

Suddenly slogan chanting started with sounds of ‘Allah ho Akbar’ resonating through the halls combined with a shower of 500ml water bottles being thrown at the people present, these bottles which were provided for lunch and were now being used as weapons packed quite a lethal punch hitting participants on their faces & seriously injuring quite a few – total panic.

After creating total chaos these gangs of pseudo mullahs started moving out but a few brave volunteers choose to stop them and in turn asked for police assistance. The police in turn reportedly asked a bribe of 5 million rupees which clearly turned out to be a deal breaker and not provided.

The arsonists turned even more violent after seeing their exit being blocked and started breaking the window panes and wielded those pieces of broken glass as weapons, in response the brave volunteers backed off letting the enraged crowd out of the premises

Still to this point, after the hoodlums tried to terrorize & in their attempt to crash the event the participants (2000 plus youth ) were still wanting to go ahead with their attempt at the world record, returned but to their dismay the Hall Lights were turned off by the Expo Center authorities which was indeed the final straw & everybody started moving out. Seeing this the volunteers in their last ditch attempt went ahead of the crowd trying to plead them back in. But by then the Expo Center authorities had literally packed up and refused to allow the event to proceed as they had received enough threats to now not permit the event at all

The Islamic Soldiers then came in with there own cameras, surveyed & recorded their victorious mess and called it a day. The police were later found to be scavenging the lunch boxes when sponsors & organizers came to take their unused stuff.

It was a sad representation on the preachings of Islam, peace and tolerance were superseded by hooliganism, anger and violence

The thing to be noted here that Major news channels (AAJ, Express & Dawn news) mobiles were standing outside for coverage & no one dared show this incident apart from a short 10-second clip by Dawn TV. While The News crew were seen sitting inside having refreshments catered to by the event organizers


174 Comments

  • Nazia |

    Mughal

    Believe me I have no interest what Muslim men opt to choice for their physical presentation in their lives.It is none of my interest too as I believe one should live comfortably according to his faith and as per system's limitation.

    I only observe people temperament handling others, their dutiful and responsible nature and their truthfulness regardless of their physical God made structure.

    In my experience sometime long beard men have filthy nature which reflects in few moment while handling them and same I observe in clean shave men.

    I have this photo of Holy prophet in my child hood encyclopedia which my father had brought from Dubai but my JI neigbour had distorted it through blade along with photo of hazrat esa and hazrat marriyum.

    Almost similar type his presentations have been seen in Spanish and french books.

    The features of Prophet which is described in you reference

    some how resembles like photo but beard is small and had brown color.

    I am no way impressed by all time looking like bridegroom amir liaquat but just telling you How his beard was resembling with described personality of Holy Prophet mentioned in some books.

    If you would have same kind of beard on your face, I put your name but nothing like in my mind as you people are being touchy.

  • Nazia |

    Kjjkl

    Logic of believing God gives us some kind of psychological protection from extreme fears you face in this world.

    It gives you supportive idea that as you are under control of a unseen mighty force who is all time monitoring your acts and deeds.

    Concept of God is one of strongest perception human has that smoothly drives his courage and motives of life in most difficult moments of life.

    Presence of such force around us provide us fear of accountability of our all time free style deeds .

    It channelize our energy and potential to specific directions,

    and many more.

    Wazoo or ablution is best guide line to adopt hygienic way of living in all walks of life.

    Who is stopping you to have beard size upto inches to feet size.

    Why you people get infuriated if I ask some questions that usually come to my mind when I see lengthy beard men on wrong places.

    Ok go and follow this sunnah along with four marriage to widow and divorcees, and always speak truth to others, never cheat any body and pass life as righteous man.

    No body is stopping you but asking you any question based on logic is sin in your dictionary of religion.

  • Nazia |

    Dr

    you would be surprise to hear that I believe in medicine free life styles.Since many years no antibiotics have even entered into my house.

    Only first aid kit is available in my medicine drawer just for handling incidents or contingency, other wise my home is quite free of any kind of medicines.

  • dr jawwad khan |

    good …first health of the body and then health of the mind. and for the health of the mind it is necessary not to use computer very often. you know internet is full of crap and gives you many bizarre and freaky ideas. just don't listen to any body. just listen to tableeghi women around the neighborhood.

    Achhi sohbat say dimagh kay saray khannas door ho jatey hen.

  • Nazia |

    I have listened a lot and no more carving for it

    and thanks to net service at least I get rapid information instead of going to libraries

    Please give me permission to ask any member of tableehi jammat without any intention of offending him.

    that give me one logical reason of having 2 feet beard in an Islamic society.

    If you are dental doctor and have such kind of beard at least I would leave your clinic ,no matter how expert you are so how would you manage this growth to drop on another face while necessary treatment.

    just fo superficial information !

  • Roda |

    @ Nazia.

    you have some good writing skill but you seems to indulge in use less discussion.

    Do some creative writing because all types of beard are here to stay for ever.

    By the way how it is possible to keep believe in medicine free life styles in Karachi .

    Most of us take some pain killer often .

  • Nazia |

    Roda

    Use less discussion are also part of human social life and create different dimensions of human nature.

    very easy go for healthy homemade food, regular sports activity ,avoiding conflict issues and complexed people and tested family remedies are some tips of medicine free life styles.

    Dont give importance to personal pains and gains.

    Try to share the pain of others,you would forget your pains and and go for comfortable sleep.

  • Observer |

    This event is a commercial stunt on the behalf of Gilette, but I don't understand why the heck a crook like Maulana Diesel is duty bound to defend Islamic values.

    Btw: We have known Maulana Diesel for a while, and now we have been "blessed" with a mMulana Current too. Maybe the INCOMPETENT PPP government should contact this fake mullah and ensure some electricty for Pakistanis:-)

    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1410300

    • jibran |

      Observer,

      Maulana Diesel didn't make any such call, the story was fabricated just to add spice.

      Mr. Diesel was busy counting the last stash that he received. BTW, you know people stopped praying behind him.

    • Observer |

      @Jibran

      Diesel deserves such treatment, but has he been affected….nope this shameless creature will continue t be shameless?

  • Qaimkhani |

    Saleem Shahzad of MQM says that they want to turn Pakistan into a "Falahi Riyasat"

    http://ejang.jang.com.pk/4-4-2010/pic.asp?picname

    Their 'Falahi Riayasat' means only for the falah of Altaf Hussain and that could only happen when all the opponents are successfully target killed…

    People of Karachi are scared by their vision of 'Falahi Riyasat'….When the drunken bastards become the leaders of the nation.

  • Nazia |

    so Aone

    you say

    if i recognize the person giving the speech there, it is Adnan Kakakhel who is associated with Jamia Binoria – the very same Jamia Binoria that endorsed the MQM in the 2008 elections, a party avowedly secular & arguably involved in many of the incidents of violence we witness in our city.

    so that was my point of discussion under different topic.

    that how we misuse our religion under name of hypocrisy for controlling the masses.

    Your views on politics of Karachi is very accurate and MQM or our intelligence agencies it means are still main controller of Karachi pseudo religious political phobias created time by time.

    MNC local agent might couldnt have gotten permission of such event or perhaps forgotten to give bhutta to local representatives of MQM.

    Now you see that what miltiary rules have given us normal attitude to react violently against any odds.This trend has been multiplied in naext 10 years and Our bails like zardari, Musharraf or altaf hussain are hired and protected by western powers all are enjoying life and assets in west and violence is left for us to show the world we Muslims are violent people.

    • Al |

      Nazia: This is what i was saying all along that we need to tackle the hypocrisy in our society which is one of the main problems. What you were pointing out in the earlier post was not a societal problem except in your own mind.

      As for MQM, i think they just happen to be 'badmasho me sab se bare badmash' in Karachi. None of the parties are innocent. It is just so in Karachi that MQM usually turns out on top. ANP, PPP all have the same attitude. What to say about the JI who were among the pioneers of using violence in politics.

      Karachi happens to be the turf of MQM which jealously guards it from the other parties. The same attitude can be found in other parties with varying degrees. MQM was meted out not to dissimilar a treatment by the various factions of the PML when it tried to enter Punjab.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    What kind of hypocrisy you are trying to tackle in Karachi.

    Last year more 700 people have been target killed in this city and they are crying for Talibans.

    Musharf days more than 50 bomb blasts have been done in Pindi/Islamabad areas where one of strongest network of ISI is active for last 25 years.This was same ISI which was successfully involved in breaching high secure areas of India and Afghanistan but couldnt see any strong link of bombers and black water movement.

    It is not one year but for last 7 years our army is fighting with terrorists of Alqeada and no mood of halting its operation in coming days.All are praising army efforts for what still not clear?

    So to whom you first pick leader of this hypocrisy.

    Badmash is as long badmash as he is considered as super human being.The day you start reacting against his bullying attitude, his all badmashi vanishes.

    So the day Karachi people gather their courage all badmash would go to their bottle trap.

    JI has been kicked out from lahore politics long time ago and now only Punjab university where they can show their power tactics of harassment as mqm do on events and streets of Karachi.

    • Al |

      Nazia: I am not disputing your figures & your analysis on the bomb blasts & the target killings. Did i say anything to support these or the policies that have led to them?

      Blackwater might be involved in subversion activities in the country but the terrorism we are facing today is homegrown & until we accept it as a nation there is nothing that can be done about it.

      Most of the suicide bombings in the country are owned by the various militant groups in FATA loudly & proudly with the assertions that they will continue to carry out such attacks. But still some people would rather blame it on CIA, RAW, Blackwater & anyone else. Why? Because in their heart of hearts they support these suicide bombings. The problem is when confronted they cannot justify them with religion where innocents are killed mercilessly & so the cowardly way out is to blame the 'others'.

      This is the best method to absolve yourself of all responsibilities – America, Britain, Israel, Blackwater, XE, CIA, MOSSAD, RAW & the list goes on. Of course these countries & their intelligence agencies will do what is best for their country not what is best for Pakistan. There is nothing conspiratorial about it.

      The problem is we like to hide our heads in the sand. India might be stoking the insurgency in Baluchistan but it did not create it. That prize goes to our own establishment.

      It is in the interest of the Army & ISI as well to promote these conspiracy theories. Why? Because this way they can get away with 50 years of following flawed policies.

      As for MQM, it is no different from the other political parties. Violence in politics is a bigger problem then MQM or any single party. You think ANP is any less violent in Karachi? They just don't get the upper hand because of their numbers & their narrower support base in the city. But they can be just as violent when it comes to it. There are several areas of the city controlled by them where police cannot even enter. And the same goes for the PPP.

      I think the only odd man out over here is Tehrik-Insaaf if you can call it a political party. That is why they make such a big issue out of the MQM. The other parties know that they are just as guilty in these political games & so have no qualms sitting with the MQM.

      Remember how in the Charter of Democracy signed by almost all parties except the MQM & PML-Q, it was decided that no party would ever form a coalition with the MQM again.

      Well, all of them that mattered did. ANP, PPP, PML-N. ANP is part of the coalition with MQM & PPP in the center. PPP is also in coalition with the MQM in Sind. PML-N once it needs to form a government will also have no problems sitting with the MQM. Shahbaz Sharif has already visited 90 after all that high & mighty talk in the Charter of Democracy.

      So we need to change this culture of violence. MQM cannot be singled out over here.

    • Al |

      And i am talking about our hypocrisy as a society, as a nation. That includes all of us. We would rather close our eyes and assume that problems don't exist rather then face the reality & the associated responsibilities.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    The essence of your long lecture is very simple

    Who developed this concept of suicidal bombing in our mountains.

    ISI under GHQ orders.

    Who quietly allowed this black water in remote and urban areas of Pakistan.

    Ghq

    who nurtured and provided full backup of arms and training to JI and MQM

    Who brought zardari and his team back to pavillion

    Musahrf and Kiyani CO

    Credit goes to brain of this pak army whom intelligence agencies which are designed to trace its people activities, to hunt its people ,to kidnap locals and plans of insurgency in nearby countries through local deprived class.

    Dont use word Establishment , just say army Establishment who heavily bribed tribal heads of Baluchistan, leaving poverty and slavery in the fate of majority.

    Slaves might not react if one master is badly treating them but here state is more brutal care taker than Balaochi sardars so their trends toward India or Baluchistan shouldn't be consider as surprise. Drowning man catches the straw so they are looking for straws in drone attack like state.

    So very simple to reach the exact nucleus of powers in Military republic of Pakistan

    • Nazia |

      Aone

      we are not hypocrite but cross its limit long time ago

      Now come to direct straight lies

      nothing less than it on which we compromise.

    • Al |

      I agree, establishment means primarily the army. Army is responsible for all of these policies that we have been following for so long.

      But we cannot absolve the political & bureaucratic elite from this. They have also been as much a part of this system joining hands with the army whenever it suits them & becoming 'champions' of democracy when it doesn't. The people are caught between a rock & a hard place.

      Now democracy is not to blame, but politicians certainly are to blame including Sharifs, Bhuttos & others.

      Why does the army keep the upper hand? Because the politicians are so god-damn incompetent, more interested in filling their own pockets than anything else.

      One would have imagined that after 9 years of direct rule & being in the spotlight, the army would have let the civilians take over. But our bad luck is that the politicians are so incompetent & corrupt that the army does not feel any need to let go of its policy making powers.

      Even today our foreign policy & defense policy are TOTALLY run by the army. The politicians are so corrupt they dare not complain.

      And if you ask personally i would much rather have the foreign policy in the hands of the military then in the hands of Zardari, Rehman Malik, & Babar Awan et al.

      Although not an ideal situation it is in my opinion the best one we have at the moment.

    • Al |

      @Nazia: One more thing i would like to add is that the army is not stupid. It looks after its interests even going in some situations against what the Americans want.

      It is in its interest to side with the Americans for all the military & financial help it gets & so it sides with them.

      We are scared that the Americans will take away our nuclear weapons but we forget that all throughout the 80's when we were developing them, America knew full well about our activities but turned a blind eye because it wanted cooperation from the Pakistani military in the Afghan war.

      Each year the President of the US would certify in Congress that Pakistan was not developing nuclear weapons. This went on for several years until the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan. Only then did the American President suddenly wake up to the fact that Pakistan was developing nuclear weapons.

      Drone strikes are in the interest of the establishment. That way they can get rid of unwanted people cheaply. They have been lying to the nation & shedding crocodile tears every time there is a drone strike. The fact is that these drones have been flying from Jacobabad Airport & Airfields in Baluchistan with the full permission of the Pakistani military.

      The Pakistani Air force chief has admitted in the media that we can shoot them down so why don't we? Because they are carrying out their strikes with our full permission.

      But the army also acts in its own interest even if it means going against the Americans.

      A case in point is that Americans have been constantly putting pressure on Musharraf & now Kiyani to go after the militant groups in FATA & crackdown on the Quetta Shura. Musharraf did not budge initially. They kept denying there was any militant activity on our side of the border & until recently totally denied that any Quetta Shura existed & it was just a figment of the American imagination.

      Even now, the military is specifically targeting certain groups that are carrying out activities in Pakistan while leaving other militant groups go free. Why? Because they know that they will be of use to them once the Americans leave. These groups will be used to vie for influence in Afghanistan where India & Iran are backing their own groups.

      Leaving aside the morality of this position, one cannot blame them for such a policy either. Every State carries out such activities vying for influence. This includes America, India & Iran in our region.

      The problem is that we are fighting this war in our own backyard & India & the US are fighting it far away from their countries.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    I can only modify your bitter truths.

    You think that

    politicians certainly are to blame including Sharifs, Bhuttos & others.

    Sharif s and bhutto had got first lesson of controlling people's power through generals who picked them from civilian setup due to their corrupt background.

    They were not born leaders but ready made leaders who were projected through army set up in same manner these days they are backing NRO group as one one of strong ruling political group to whom no protest and curse from public matters on their poorest performance.

    our bureaucracy is all rounder and all time ready to salute to rising sun of time.

    So behind incompetency of politician you should put blame to ISI network where colonials are assigned the jobs to help politicians for confirmed victories over anti miltiary people and rest can try their luck on their own basis.

    People had no interest on bhutto , zardari and sharif but is kiyani and co under Musharraf supervision who brought them back by providing them all legal protections through legal means.

    That is why you people have naturally come to conclusion like that

    if you ask personally i would much rather have the foreign policy in the hands of the military then in the hands of Zardari, Rehman Malik, & Babar Awan et al.

    • Al |

      Nazia: I disagree with you when you say they don't have any leadership qualities. Nawaz Sharif has to an extent & Bhutto definitely had a lot of leadership qualities. He did start of his career with Ayub Khan but he had the capability to launch his own party. Bhutto worked individually under Ayub Khan but PPP never came to power on the back of the military. Bhutto launched the party after parting ways with Ayub Khan. Bhutto was genuinely popular & still the PPP gets votes in his name. The same cannot be said about how the Sharif's came to power.

      And although i think Bhutto was not good for Pakistan in a lot of ways (flawed economic policies being one of them) he was a man of immense capabilities & i guess the only leader we have had after the founding fathers who had the understanding, the vision, & the capability to drive an independent foreign policy & wrest control from the military.

  • Nazia |

    You are A one of your own kind.

    You say that army is not stupid

    Who is saying that army is stupid it is our Generals who are touching the level of stupidities.

    I can prove you through different live examples that decisions of senior military officers usually revolve around personal gains and if some how any little nationalist minded officer try to intervene in their matters then he is sent to UN mission to Africa for showing their devotion to people of other countries.

    Another factor that influence the management and decision making of our miltiary establishment is their gap with locals and their serious actual problems.

    Their training does not allow them to mingle with civilians for solving their problems ,

    On the other hand these were same officers who are not reluctant to shake hand with top bureaucracy and top business man for guiding them secure loot plans in civil structures.

    Get the data of big scams of Pakistan in last 15 years and you would find the cover up of army management in it.

    Who said that US cant take away their nuclear weapons.Nuclear weapons are not home made product for its fuel supply, its reactant composition its update checking and handling it critical monitoring we have to depend on west and its companies.You re not inventor of nuclear arms nor designer of atom bomb so how ridiculously you are defending the weakest reason of army supporting US in all mal practice.

    It might be brain washing of young officers to make them ready for all kind of sacrifices in time of need.

    If you say here that our army on technological basis has been baddly addicted of US supply and in case of rebel they can cease you all supplu.

    Go and find some acts from history when US halted your F16 spare part supply or delivery of new F16.

    So you are a handicapped nation and your army is just moving you in wheel chairs as international beggars for getting more funds to run state under military rulers.

    Here I can agree you that army is actually backing this drone attacks to clear the unwanted growth of Taliban but see that how ruthlessly they are handling the civilians of that area.

    This time it was record breaking names of officers who were moved to safe areas from the list of soldiers sending to war front,just on the unjustified recommendations of their uncle ,fathers and father in laws who are also working in army.

    • Al |

      Nazia: Are you really this stupid or you just try to be? What is the Army by itself? It is the officers that make up the Army. So when i say that the Army is not stupid it means that the army officers who make up the army are not stupid.

      No one is denying corruption in the army. But I am talking about the collective interests of the military establishment & the army as an institution does look after its own interests even when it has to go against American Interests sometimes.

      We can see that happening right now because Pakistan is not ready to act against certain militant groups that the US wants it to act against. And the US has now slowly begun to accept Pakistan's 'legitimate' interests in Afghanistan. If you follow the news, the US now is coming around to allowing Pakistan an active role in any future settlement with the taliban. That is what Hamid Karzai & India are worried about.

      The army will not like US soldiers on the ground carrying out operations on our side of the border. That is because they view it as their turf & they will not like the US to gather any influence there. They will clean up whatever mess there is themselves. I know from people who have been to the region how the paramilitary tolerates these militants & allows them a freehand as long as they don't carry out any activities within Pakistan's borders.

      You say: //Who said that US cant take away their nuclear weapons.Nuclear weapons are not home made product for its fuel supply, its reactant composition its update checking and handling it critical monitoring we have to depend on west and its companies.You re not inventor of nuclear arms nor designer of atom bomb so how ridiculously you are defending the weakest reason of army supporting US in all mal practice.//

      First of all these are Pakistan's nuclear weapons, not theirs or anyone elses. And Pakistan has already by some estimates 80-100 nuclear weapons ready for deployment. This means if you do not know which i am sure you don't that Pakistan has already made these number of bombs. We don't need more fuel and raw materials for them.

      Either your english is weak or you are really stupid. I am not claiming that we are inventors of nuclear bombs & what do you mean i am 'defending the weakest reason'? I am not defending anything, just stating facts. However way we got hold of the technology we have it now & we have already tested nuclear weapons & possess a certain stockpile.

      And as regards the US stopping our military supplies in times of needs that is true but you cannot deny the fact that we are also dependent on the US & the West for much of our weapons. We have been allied with the US since the 50's during times of the cold war when we decided to take sides.

  • Nazia |

    you should be awarded noble prize of war strategies after reading this comment

    Leaving aside the morality of this position, one cannot blame them for such a policy either. Every State carries out such activities vying for influence. This includes America, India & Iran in our region.

    Give me name of any country whose army in such a large scale train insurgents and terrorist with in its own boundary.

    Try to match it any poorest country who kills her people and soldiers for getting US sympathies.

    Try to place Pakistan with any country where in all kind of polarization on religious basis or fragmentation on the ethnic bases are done by trained army.

    The countries you mentioned are known for their professional armies and none of any COAS have any time conquered is own people through false statements.

    Have you ever read the corruption scandals of top miltiary men of these countries.Yes few are caught and punished with strict laws.

    They plan counter terrorism procedures for enemies by buying pimps from local breed and our generals come in this class pimp service.

    • Al |

      First of all, the military did not train them to carry out terrorist activities inside Pakistan. Some of the groups have just got out of hand. They were to be used in India, Afghanistan as a kind of strategic weapon.

      The army is fighting against these militants & killing a lot of civilians in the process but it is as much to gain US sympathies as to establish its own authority on the militant groups. If it wanted to it could have handled them long ago but the military wants to keep these militant groups alive for strategic reasons.

      What the hell are you talking about known for their professional armies? If you don't know anything than please keep your mouth shut. Do you even know what the US army has been doing in Iraq & Afghanistan. Very professional of them to torture prisoners & take nude pictures of them. Do you suggest the Pakistani army should also follow in these professional footsteps?

      The US military establishment has been carrying out subversion activities around the world including South America. Recent example includes their failed attempt to oust Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez through a military coup. The man was so popular that hundreds of thousands people came out in his support and the coup leaders had to eventually give in after a few days even though the US had fully supported them.

      The US is waging wars for oil & its strategic interests half way across the world & you think it is a very nice military force.

      And the Indian military doesn't have a very beautiful record either. There is this Maoist rebellion going on there for decades now & the military there is just as ruthless with civilians. Plus the Indian military is also accused of training Tamil Tiger rebels in Tamil Nadu.

      So read a bit of history before just blurting out.

      I don't have any touchy relationship with the army. I am just stating the facts. If you have ever read history and know how states protect their interests you will know that morality always takes the back seat.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    I am just telling you about their first flight which they have taken from army bases.

    Their wealthy background and superiority complex is basic reason of their leadership qualities and army support gave them booster injection and then projection to masses.

    As compared to Shairf bHUTTO IQ was much better and luckily he come in the category of some literate feudal.

    Another advantage of that era was that china mao zu tung movmenet was on its peak and grabbed the attention of public so for becoming popular figure he copied his foot step.

    In actual life he was typical wadera and he was in need of support of miltiary to strenghten his control.In that coperation we lost east Pakistan.

    Shairf was product of duffer zia so like father like son.

    Same bhutto was illegitimate political child of Ayub same son mostly follow the styles of father in this games.

    Musharraf produced more sons which are now one of richest people of Pakistan and his favorite are chaudry brothers, sher afghan and many more.They all reflect the mentality of their god father. rule here(Pakistan) and live there(west)

    I know you have very touchy relation with army but I cant support it in any way on the name of strategical depths as I am watching depths of their characters and professional duties for last many years.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    April 7, 2010 at 12:49 am – First of all, the military did not train them to carry out terrorist activities inside Pakistan. Some of the groups have just got out of hand. They were to be used in India, Afghanistan as a kind of strategic weapon.

    ====================

    Sir,

    For your kind perusal,

    Under the very nose of Musharraf. "LIES"of General [R] Pervez Musharraf, Sharifs & Talibans.
    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/03/liesof-g

    • Al |

      Aamir Mughal Sb.:

      I have read through some of the articles in the link you have provided. It does not negate what i said but rather reinforces the fact that Pakistan military has kept these militant groups as a weapon of choice to be used in achieving whatever its strategic objectives are. In Kashmir, Afghanistan, India etc.

      This policy is being followed by the military for a very very long time & is still being followed. We cannot just isolate Musharraf for it despite your particular aversion to him. These militants were used in the 1947 & 1965 wars.

      A very recent example is when the military was claiming Baitullah Mehsud as Enemy No. 1. But then the 26/11 Mumbai attacks happened and overnight he turned into a patriot. And he also gave statements to the effect that he had a 1000 suicide bombers ready for India or something. So here is the duplicity of the military at evident display.

      One thing i would like to point out that at several places the comments you have posted turn into extremely western biased propaganda.

      Like over here:

      //The conference thus became a tool of extremists who would not hesitate to criticize and destabilize the governments of Gulf Arab States.//

      And Here:

      //Was not the name of Deoband hijacked by such people to organise a conference that extolled bigotry and violence and seriously sought to undermine the policies of governments in friendly Arab countries like Saudi Arabia//

      I believe the criticisms raised by the participants were all valid. It is funny how the US & many of us talk about 'democracy','freedom of expression','human rights' and everything in Pakistan but conveniently forget about all these things when it comes to 'friendly' Arab states. Why? Because they happen to have a lot of money & we have to go begging to them after every few years? We conveniently forget that most of these are quite authoritarian and in some cases brutal monarchies & dictatorships.

      That does not mean that we start fomenting trouble in these countries & start training militants. But we should at least have the courage to call a spade a spade.

      And again i disagree over here: //The permission accorded to the JUI to host the conference clearly indicates that General Musharraf has signaled to people in Pakistan that he understands and supports the causes espoused by the Taleban and Osama bin Laden.//

      Musharraf wouldn't in a thousand years support the causes espoused by Mullah Omar & Osama Bin Laden. He & the military establishment were just using the groups & still are to achieve their political/strategic objectives.

      One of these is to remind the US that they cannot afford to alienate the Pakistani military or these groups might be let lose in Afghanistan & India.

      I just got tired after reading till there. You need to shorten your posts. No one is ever going to read through all that. I suggest you create separate pages with links for each article.

  • jahmoore |

    What our liberals are made of:

    General Rani

    The woman was a phenomenon. Easily the most influential figure during Pakistan's second military regime, with the slightest gesture of her bejewelled hand she could guarantee employment, ensure promotions and bring about unwelcome transfers. Yet, interestingly, few even know her real name: Akleem Akhtar. General Rani she was, and remains to all but an intimate few.

    There are enough reasons for the lady's ascension to local legend status. In her glory days she seemed omnipotent and was brazen about her exploits. And now, even while suffering from breast cancer that has led to metastasis in the liver and kidney, bedridden and in semi-seclusion, she remains spirited and outspoken.

    Yet, doing a story on her was probably the most difficult assignment I have undertaken. For one thing, everyone I was certain was acquainted with her, was reluctant to even own up to the fact that they knew her. So, for starters, I made a call to her daughter, Aroosa Alam, the defence journalist for the Pakistan Observer and the news coordinator for the Middle East Broadcasting Company, and pop star Fakhre Alam's mother.

    Aroosa nipped all efforts at contact with her mother in the bud, claiming that not only was General Rani far too unwell to entertain visitors, but also, her brothers were completely against their mother appearing in the press. "My mother has been hurt sufficiently by the media already; we don't want her private life exploited any further," stated a stern Aroosa.

    A call to Naureen and Arshad Sami, Adnan Sami Khan's parents, proved equally unsuccessful. Although General Rani is Naureen's maternal aunt, she politely but firmly denied even knowing the lady. There was a similar response from Zil-e-Huma, whose mother Madame Nur Jehan's friendship with General Rani was legion. Huma completely denied any knowledge of the woman.

    A journalist working for the Jang group, Maqsood Butt nearly had an apoplexy when I mentioned the story I was working on. While in the past Maqsood Butt had written extensively on this topic and is said to have close ties with the family, he has for several years, refrained from even bringing up her name in an article.

    "I promised her that I would never talk about her or her family again," he stated nervously and refused to help me in any way.

    Clearly, the woman I was seeking out was no ordinary woman. As I kept running into a blind alley and became increasingly despondent, General Rani's lawyers, S. M. Zafar and Ijaz Batalvi, Mustafa Khar, and a few journalists and government officials who wish to remain anonymous, appeared like beacons and lit my way.

    A sneak visit was arranged to General Rani's house and thereupon begins this story.

    The house General Rani resides in is rather small, with little more than a handkerchief-sized lawn in front, and the main door opening into a virtually non-existent hall that leads straight to her room. There was an air of neglect about the house; the garden was unkempt and the floor unswept. General Rani was lying in bed. My first impression was one of shock. Having visualised an elegant, elderly woman, I was instead confronted by a dark, overweight woman. Her hair had obviously suffered due to heavy doses of chemotherapy, and the loss of hair accentuated the pock-marks on her face. But though visibly ill, she was in good spirits and happy to entertain visitors – a commodity I suspect, is a rare treat nowadays.

    General Rani hails from a village in Gujarat. Her father was a zamindar and the family was reportedly well-to-do. Those who knew her family describe their house as one of the bigger mansions in the area, with a number of servants running around to the residents' bidding.

    From the outset, Akleem was an independent spirit. She was a tomboy, fond of outdoor sports and hunting. And though she did not even complete her matric, her sharp intelligence more than compensated for her lack of education.

    At a tender age she was married to a police officer many times her senior. Though the marriage lasted for some time and she bore six children, General Rani was never happy. Her husband was a traditionalist and believed that a wife's primary duty was to serve her husband. A woman as strong and independent as she found this hard to digest, and squabbles were common between the two. The sham their marriage was eventually reduced to, collapsed one day – right on Murree's Mall Road.

    One summer, when the family was vacationing in Murree, a burqa-clad Rani and her husband went for a stroll on the Mall. As was customary for him, he walked a step or two behind her so as to keep an eye on her. Suddenly there was a gust of wind – "a lovely breeze" says she, and quite spontaneously Rani lifted the naqab covering her face to allow the breeze to caress her cheeks.

    Her husband immediately tapped her with his walking stick to reprimand her. Enraged and insulted, she threw caution to the wind and flung her naqab to the ground, and her abaya into a cracking fire. She then turned to face her husband with a defiant gleam in her eyes.

    She explains her reaction in these words: "I just felt I had had enough. The anger and frustration had been building up inside me for many months, but that day, it just all came oozing out. I wanted to tear my husband's muffler into bits, scratch his face, pull his hair out, and do all sorts of damage to him. The only thing that stopped me were the people on the Mall."

    Though this incident marked the end of her marriage, the official divorce process (if there was one) took place later. Most sources agree that Rani was only married once, but one of her closest friend states that there was a second marriage, much later in her life and of an extremely short duration. Whatever the truth of that marriage, the dramatic end of her first proved a turning point in her life and transformed Rani irrevocably. She began to thrive on her independence and her life philosophy evolved into a specific ambition. As she puts it, "I was determined to beat men at their own game. Since my husband was in the police, I had been observing men in positions of power throughout my married life and I had realised that all men in positions of power needed a vent and the vent they require the most is a bedmate provided through a reliable agency. The higher a man's position, the greater his demand."

    In one interview, Rani stated: "I knew that dumb, pretty girls who come with no strings attached are a universal failing of men in power. After my marriage collapsed and I had to find the means to support myself and my children, I decided to become the provider of such girls to men in need."

    In yet another conversation, she talked about the understanding she gained of the workings of the government by listening to her husband's complaints. "I realised that in this country everything worked on mutual favours and the profession that I had chosen for myself entitled me to these favours."

    This outspokenness notwithstanding, Rani maintains she personally never allowed herself to be used or even thought of as any man's keep. She contends she maintained her dignity and saw herself as a sexless mother figure. She says she was always the woman behind the scenes, there to run the show and mop up the mess.

    The gods were obviously smiling on her, because soon after she adopted this profession, the man who was soon to run the show took a shine to her. She describes her first meeting with Yahya Khan. "At that time Agha Jani was posted at Kharian and I was living in Gujarat. We met by chance at a party in Pindi club. Though I would often frequent such parties, I never joined in the drinking and dancing. Rather, I preferred sitting some distance away from the party and usually found a seat near the men's room, well aware of the fact that the more they drank the more visits they would have to make to the toilet and hence past me.

    "Agha Jani was in full swing at this party. He was completely drunk, and was continually traipsing back and forth from the men's room. During one of these visits, he saw me and took a fancy to me. I remember asking about him and after we were formally introduced, I invited him to Gujarat."

    Thereafter Yahya Khan began making frequent journeys from Kharian to Gujarat. Somewhere along the way she earned the title of General Rani and the name stuck. While speculation about the exact nature of her relationship with Yahya Khan rages – they were said to be friends, lovers, shared a sibling relationship or one of demand and supply at various times through the course of their relationship – the general consensus among Rani's more intimate circle is that they never had a physical relationship. Various explanations are put forth to explain this. "Yahya never desired her," says a friend. "She was a woman of principles and from day one, she made it clear to him what her limits were," states another.

    Nonetheless, after he became the martial law adminstrator, Rani became a cornerstone in his life. Yahya's weaknesses were drink and women and Rani masterfully catered to both. Among the women she introduced him to were film actress Taranna – film actress Andleeb's mother – Madame Nur Jehan and Nael Kamal. She relates how Yahya's fascination with Nur Jehan began.

    "One night Agha Jani came to visit me and was somewhat agitated. The moment he entered, he inquired if I had heard the song "cheeche da chala" from the film Dhee Rani. I smiled and stated that I had no time to listen to songs. So, he called the military secretary and ordered him to have a copy of the song delivered to my house at once. It was two o' clock in the morning and the MS had to specially have an audio shop opened up in order to obtain the album. But the command was obeyed and within an hour, Agha Jani was blissfully listening to the song.

    "Observing him I smiled and stated that since he seemed to enjoy the song so immensely, I would bring the singer to his house on his birthday. This greatly pleased him and so the very next day, I took a flight to Lahore. In those days, a suite at the Intercontinental Hotel was permanently reserved for me and so from the airport, I went directly to the hotel. From there I called Nur Jehan and asked her to come and meet me. Till now, I had never been formally introduced to her; I just knew of her, as she knew of me. Well, Nur Jehan came, and we talked, and the next week she arrived in Islamabad to dance and sing for General Yahya Khan."

    Madame Nur Jehan's relationship with General Yahya Khan subsequently came under great scrutiny. At first, Madame persistently denied that she was on friendly terms with the general, but when objectionable pictures of both of them were printed, she resorted to another defence and officially stated that General Rani, had time and, again tried to get her involved with the general. In response to this, Rani laughed and commented that Madame was hardly a suckling infant who could be coerced into doing what others wanted her to do. The Rani-Nur Jehan tussle was played up by the press, until eventually, some time before the latter's death, the two made up. Following is an extract from an interview General Rani gave after Madame's death.

    Q: Why did you introduce Madame Nur Jehan to General Yahya Khan?

    A: Some tax inspectors were bugging Madame Nur Jehan and the poor woman was in great distress. She asked me to help her out and I introduced her to Agha Jani.

    Q: How would you define your relationship with Nur Jehan?

    A: She was just like my sister and I often called her baji.

    Q: How would you describe her character?

    A: She was an exceptionally brave and confident woman, who brought up her children singlehandedly. The only flaw she had was her greed for money.

    Q: It is said that Madame tried to drive a wedge between you and Yahya Khan?

    A: I don't want to say anything on this issue. If Rani catered to Agha Jani's every whim, there is no question that she was royally compensated. During Yahya Khan's time, General Rani prospered way beyond her wildest expectations. There are endless reports of how she would use her 'special relationship' with Yahya to fill her coffers. She would ask for a plot of land or a house in return for a favour and those desperate for a job or promotion would readily fulfill her demands. During this time, politicians were also eager to win her approval and among the many who curried her favour were Mustafa Khar and Z. A. Bhutto.

    General Rani describes her relationship with these two men: "Both Mustafa Khar and Z. A. Bhutto would come and sit at my house for hours on end, begging me to introduce them to the General. Mustafa Khar was particularly fond of listening to the poems I used to write. In fact if you compare Yahya Khan to these two, I would say that I was closer to Bhutto and Khar and arranged more parties for them than I did for Agha Jani."

    It was a closeness that was not to endure. As soon as Bhutto came to power, General Rani was put under house arrest and her telephone connection was cancelled. Her crime in the words of an eminent lawyer was that, "she knew too much."

    Thus began General Rani's downfall. Once the issue of house arrest was resolved (courtesy S. M. Zafar) and her subsequent jail terms ended (the most recent for drug-trafficking), General Rani never really reverted to her former glory. By now the money that had so freely flowed into her hands had also freely flowed out.

    Financially wrecked, socially ostracised, dependent only on the kindness of a few whose affections for her have endured, General Rani lives largely in the past – in the memory of days of wine and roses

    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsMay2002/memories.h

  • Aamir Mughal |

    jahmoore says: April 7, 2010 at 8:45 am What our liberals are made of:

    ================

    An Eye for an Eye? By Owais Tohid
    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsOct2003/stopoct1.h

    Test of Faith? By Zahid Hussain
    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsOct2003/cover1oct2
    The MMA leadership has been engaged in secret negotiations with ISI officials involved in political-fixing. However, because of political considerations, they stopped short of entering into an alliance with the federal government, despite the alliance in Balochistan. The ISI's move to split the alliance which they had helped to create a year ago is thought to be aimed at bringing the defiant MMA leaders under pressure and teaching them a lesson for going too far in attacking Musharraf.

    The Frontier government's poor performance and its attempts to impose hardline Sharia rule in the province have alienated the urban middle class and disillusioned its supporters. Its move to Talibanise the NWFP has certainly not helped the MMA's effort to present itself as a moderate Islamic force that would be likely to make political inroads in the Punjab and Sindh.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    jahmoore says: April 7, 2010 at 8:45 am What our liberals are made of:

    =====================

    Be careful from where you quote because this magazine is related with very Liberal Ladies of Karachi and started by a woman name Late. Ms. Razia Bhatti [Formerly in Herald with Sherry Rehman] The Pakistan Connection By Massoud Ansari
    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2005/cover1aug2

    Test of Will – Will Musharraf's latest 'register or else' deadline to madrassahs deliver the goods? By Amir Mir
    http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2005/newsbeatau

  • Aamir Mughal |

    jahmoore says: April 7, 2010 at 8:45 am What our liberals are made of:

    =====================

    From the same Liberal Magazine:

    Here Come the Vigilantes – Will the country's religio-political lobby succeed in refashioning the state to suit its own narrow interest, under the controversial Hasba Bill?

    By I.A. Rehman http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2005/newsbeat1a

  • Aamir Mughal |

    April 7, 2010 at 11:25 am – jahmoore says: April 7, 2010 at 8:45 am What our liberals are made of:

    ================================

    Hoodbhoy is their favourite: Marching Forward

    Nuclear physicist, Pervez Hoodbhoy, talks about the urgent new needs confronting the Pakistan of today.

    "Faith, Unity, Discipline." Mohammad Ali Jinnah's oft quoted phrase is known to every Pakistani. It has been used to serve different ends. Successive military rulers have claimed this is a call for all to march in step towards a goal that they have determined. Others have disputed this self-serving interpretation. But whatever Jinnah may have actually had in mind, nearly 60 years down the road, there is a new Pakistan with new realities – and pressing new needs. http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2005/guestaug20

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    I am more stupid than your expectation because I am responding you even knowing all that you wouldn't swallow any of my eyewitness facts about army, its generals and their incompetency level in line of duty.

    Your all" strategic weapons" are homegrown and made in specific areas of Pakistan under ISI officers and all facts have been recorded in history.

    Have you seen that any such forceful actions from India and Iran against your strategic weapons as your army has been recorded in history .First planned for biharis,then in swat and now in waziristan.You have utilized your all power on same footsteps which Israel is using against palestains or Sadam did to eradciate his local oppostions.

    Recently two under cover operations of Irani force,one for recovery of their abducted official who was kidnapped from Peshawar and 2nd one for capturing the ISI trained group of Ragee with Pakistan authentic ID card is either proof of their competency or deficiencies of our LEAs.

    You have to decide?

    US is God father of terrorism in this global world but they have no courage to plan any such activity in their soil.They use political and miltiary pimps of third world countries for using their soil and human rats are provided to them free of cost.

    Use of F16s, gunship helicopters, full armor and artillery for handful of insurgents are in the war strategy of our officers not Indians who are using all kind of localised strategy to handle the separatist in different disturn areas of India.

    In coming years you would slowly slowly get all the news of their atrocities done in recent war.

    It is not something different or shocking surprise as miltiary is trained to act against enemies but it is biggest tragedy of Pakistan that except of 35 days of war with India in last 62 years(22630 days) we mostly swapped it with locals on the basis of difference of faith and ethnic color.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: April 7, 2010 at 11:07 am Aamir Mughal Sb.: One thing i would like to point out that at several places the comments you have posted turn into extremely western biased propaganda.

    =======================

    Former US National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski to Jihadists: Your cause is right!

    • Al |

      @ Amir Mughal: So? I already know this. I didn't deny that the US was not supporting our military in arming and training these groups during the Afghan 'Jihad'.

      I think you misunderstood me when i said western biased propaganda. I meant not biased towards the west but biased from the point of view of the west against anyone who is against them.

      So Ayub, Zia, Musharraf become dictators after they have outlived their usefulness, but Hosni Mubarak & the Saudi King are great friends. Somehow the fact that these are more brutal regimes than any that have ever existed in Pakistan does not register in the media.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 11:07 am – Aamir Mughal Sb.: One thing i would like to point out that at several places the comments you have posted turn into extremely western biased propaganda. Musharraf wouldn’t in a thousand years support the causes espoused by Mullah Omar & Osama Bin Laden. He & the military establishment were just using the groups & still are to achieve their political/strategic objectives.

    ==================================

    Dear Sir,

    I have witnessed all very closely. One example is this that Riaz Basra [Sipah-e-Sahaba] was "allowed" freedom during Nawaz Sahrif last govt [1997 – 1999] and he was portrayed as if he was SAMSON but during Musharraf govt. he was killed like a fly in a "Police Encounter". Just a remider Musharraf and Aziz were the Officers who trained Afghan Mujahideens for surprise attack when both the officers were Colonels and thus may help: Islamic militancy is a foreign policy tool of the US and Pakistani establishments By Yousuf Nazar December 24th, 2008 http://www.yousufnazar.com/index.php?paged=8

    • Al |

      Amir Mughal: What you have quoted: "Islamic militancy is a foreign policy tool of the US and Pakistani establishments" is EXACTLY what i am saying.

      Read again:

      "Musharraf wouldn’t in a thousand years support the causes espoused by Mullah Omar & Osama Bin Laden. He & the military establishment were just using the groups & still are to achieve their political/strategic objectives."

    • Aamir Mughal |

      Dear Jawwad Sahab,

      It is far better to have Fits as you said above as compared to the profanity and abusive language you use in arguments and then you talk of Islam! Gems from your own posts [mind you we have women on this forum]

      "QUOTE"

      dr jawwad khan says: April 2, 2010 at 8:02 pm ku kulu ku!

      a dick shaving his facial hairs and a chick appears and feels the smoothness of the skin and gives a proudly smile over the act of shaving and ofcourse this is the reason i call all you dicks the “chute kay naee”

      dr jawwad khan says: April 3, 2010 at 10:53 am No dear its not “Rah e Bharwat” its “Rah e Bharwat geeri”. lolzzz i like the name of the operation

      "UNQUOTE"

      The phrase you use is translated: Barber of Vagina, Penis, and Pimping.

  • dr jawwad khan |

    hahahhaha!

    english translation is more funny than the urdu….

    barbar of vagina….hummmm…it seems that you enjoyed a lot translating my "shahkar gali"

  • Nazia |

    Jahmoor

    This is not our liberal class but it is the reality of our ruling class .They have so much of time in their schedule that they can pass hours and hours in prostitute houses for sake of pleasures.

    Rani was a symbolic name of elites' illegitimate desires and clear proof of their possessed weakness, incompetency and their natural tendency of adopting all illegitimate ways in normal life.

    Rani was not come in this profession as her husband mishandled her .She had potential to beocme keep of high profile people and God have given him full opportunity to use her skills.

    So she cashed her natural talent and our weak characters were all time paid her in the shape of sins and state crimes.

    Such lot of women are all time found active in our society hunting for influential men.Found mostly in parlors for all time looking fit as per demand of buyers or in dark sides of posh locality restaurants.

    You know why she is living in pathetic condition in her last days as she adulterated many men or provoked flirtatious nature of men toward her for short time pleasures in her peak time.

    Such ways of living for paid women are always considered illegitimate in any set up and such kind of depressive end should nt be surprise as illegality trends in human behaviours always produce loneliness and depression in long term relations .

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 12:24 pm – @ I meant not biased towards the west but biased from the point of view of the west against anyone who is against them.

    =========================

    That is called Realpolitik and that's how CIA woroks, an example. More than year ago Mr Ahmed Quraishi a defence analyst had out of sudden declared that Major General [R] Mahmud Ali Durrani is a CIA Agent and I asked him.

    the queries I raised

    1 – When did you become aware of this 'Closely Guarded Secret' about Major General [Retd] Mahmud Ali Durrani?

    Question Number 2: Did Major General [Retd] Mahmud Ali Durrani started leaking Information [as per Ahmed Quraishi] when he was From 1977 to 1982 he was Pakistan’s defense and military attaché in Washington, D.C [Incharge of ISI-CIA AFGHAN DESK IN WASHINGTON]

    Question Number 3: Did Major General [Retd] Mahmud Ali Durrani start leaking information [as per Ahmed Quraishi] when he was Military Secretary [1982-1986] to American Backed Dictator General Muhammad Zaiul Haq [1977 – 1988]

    Question Number 4: Did Major General [Retd] Mahmud Ali Durrani start leaking information [as per Ahmed Quraishi] when he was posted as the commander the 1st Armoured Division in Multan, and being the former MS to the president persuaded the then Army chief and president General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq to witness the tank exercise in Bahawalpur desert on 17 August, 1988 [where are those demented Generals i.e. General Retd. Mirza Aslam Beg and Lt. General Retd. Hamid Gul who wind up the investigations of General Zia's Plane Crash – Read, Who Killed Zia]. Brigadier (R) Imtiaz, Death of General Zia & American Conspiracy !http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/09/brigadier-r-imtiaz-death-of-general-zia.html

    • Al |

      @Amir Mughal: Agreed. Ahmed Qureshi is a stupid senseless person. I wouldn't call him an analyst but a spin doctor.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 12:30 pm – Amir Mughal: What you have quoted: “Islamic militancy is a foreign policy tool of the US and Pakistani establishments” is EXACTLY what i am saying.

    =================

    Then why complain? If our Religious Scholars [not JI or Fazlu] withdraw their help from Establishment and end their connivance and start preaching things would have improved much better.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 12:30 pm Amir Mughal: What you have quoted: “Islamic militancy is a foreign policy tool of the US and Pakistani establishments” is EXACTLY what i am saying. Read again: “Musharraf wouldn’t in a thousand years support the causes espoused by Mullah Omar & Osama Bin Laden. He & the military establishment were just using the groups & still are to achieve their political/strategic objectives.”

    =========================

    There is a big difference because I have seen during my service the way Mullahs were welcomed in Security Establishment [I wonder why our Islamic Scholars are so blind]

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Dear AI

    You know why Mawlana Yousuf Ludiyanvi, Mawlana Abdullah Ghazi [Father of Abdul Rasheed and Abdul Aziz of Lal Mosque] , Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Allama Ihsan Illahi Zaheer and countless others were assassinated? These were not Sectarian Killing but projected as Sectarian Killings. Least said is better.

    • Al |

      I don't see any difference in what you are saying & what i am saying. I am quoting from what you have said: "Islamic militancy is a foreign policy tool of the US and Pakistani establishments".

      Totally Agreed.

      This does not mean that the US & Pakistani establishment wants the implementation of a taliban style Sharia state. There are definitely sympathizers of the taliban within the Pakistani military who support them because of their ideology rather than for any strategic reasons. But the fact remains that the military establishment as a whole does not want to cede any of its power to these militant groups. That is why they target only those that target them not those that may be fighting outside of our borders.

      The US has a history of promoting this particular radical ideology in the Arab world because it wanted to counter Arab Nationalism & Socialism. Suadi Arabia was a willing partner & financier.

  • Al |

    Nazia: Since you have a lot of difficulty in understanding what i write i will try and explain in simpler words.

    You say: //Your all" strategic weapons" are homegrown and made in specific areas of Pakistan under ISI officers and all facts have been recorded in history.//

    This is EXACTLY what i am saying (in case there is more confusion EXACTLY means: in an exact manner; precisely; accurately).

    You say: //Have you seen that any such forceful actions from India and Iran against your strategic weapons as your army has been recorded in history .//

    Please read some history so you can learn about the 'benevolence' bestowed by your favorite countries India & the USA on their own citizens. I suggest you read some Arundathi Roy (this will really show you how 'kind' & 'benevelont' the Indian military & political establishment is). And read Chomsky if you want to learn about the benevolence of the USA on Native Indians, Vietnamese, Combodians, Japan, Iraq, Cuba & a long list of South American countries. The US was more brutal in many ways then even Israel because it completely wiped out the local indian population in the Americas & its culture & language.

    Also read about how the Turkish Army massacred a million Armenians less then a century ago & how they continue to brutally suppress the Kurds. They are also carrying out aerial bombings & doing exactly what the Pakistani Army is doing in Waziristan.

    Also since you seem to think that the Iranian establishment is very 'pious' & 'benevolent' learn about how they have been financing non-state groups in other countries such as Lebanon & how they happen to be in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia inside Pakistan & other countries in trying to counter each others ideologies.

    Then come & tell me that the Pakistani Army is really the odd man out over here.

    You say: //In coming years you would slowly slowly get all the news of their atrocities done in recent war.//

    I already know that the Pakistani army is carrying out a lot of human rights violations. Aerial bombings of populated areas cannot be justified in any situation. And the operation in Swat displaced millions of people. I am sure none of the 'liberals' would tolerate if such an action was taken in Lahore or Karachi. But since this was Swat it didn't matter that millions of people were displaced.

    So i agree with you here (Agree means to have the same views) so do not start arguing again.

    And when you say //"I am more stupid than your expectation…"// i TOTALLY AGREE

  • Nazia |

    Dr khan

    Your high profile language skills, your interests in gen rani biography, retorting through abusive power is excellent but it doesn't match with your beard out fit.

    So either shave it to fit in your verbal impression or not to shave it and fit in your own word( taken from your web)

    I may sound cynical to many of you/

    sure 100% agreed .no doubt.

    I hope many members certified this too.

    • dr jawwad khan |

      hahahahhaha…

      but you forgot the title which is " liberals do not read it"

      Regarding the language skills and abusive power i can't help it….it seems some inherent genes working behind it…

      But nazia!

      your gift is unmatched…you do not use abusive language, and you don't swear but even though you can make any person tearing and clawing his hairs.

      i love my beard very much i can't shave it but….why don't you go and gather some more "mard mar" women like yourself and shave in public….i swear i will support your cause and run a campaign for this act of shaving….after all the topic is "to shave or not shave". I am changing my stance.Isn't a good news that a fundamentalist is supporting an act of shaving? after all women also have a right to remove facial hair.

    • Nazia |

      Oh really

      I have so much hidden talent as you said

      your gift is unmatched…you do not use abusive language, and you don’t swear but even though you can make any person tearing and clawing his hairs.

      Eureka

      you have found my hidden talent even I am unaware of it.

      Next time kindly wear gloves before reading my comment if you are least interested in it.

      I dont want to see that number of bald men increase because of my inbuilt gift.

      Can you guide me how can I utilise my this skill to handle the extremist group of my society so that they channelize their energy toward more creative and productive side instead of cursing others.

      No woman even you put her in extreme mard mar category will think of shaving publicly and it is only dream of fanatics like you.

      For this purpose mushroom growth of parlors is carry on our streets and sooner you would find our name on top of those countries which have maximum parlor per sq km .

      Laser therapy, waxing and threading are much better option for feminine side.

  • Nazia |

    dr khan to whom I am irritating.

    please clarify.

    I am directly talking about straight facts but Aone is trying to impress me through past histories of countries and trying to show me that he has more depth in his vision .

    • Al |

      @Nazia: There is a quote attributed to Einstein: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Now i know what he meant.

      And Yeah Right! I really want to impress you. Please get over yourself. When you are presented with facts, suddenly the history becomes irrelevant.

      I don't think i need to quote any history or anything at all for that matter to prove that you do not have any 'depth in vision'.

      You can do that quite effectively all by yourself.

      Like for example what is "past histories"? Can i also quote future history?

  • dr jawwad khan |

    i may sound cynical to many of you/

    sure 100% agreed .no doubt.

    _______________________________________

    hey cheater! do not copy A1….use your own lines

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 2:12 pm – What did i complain about? I was just giving a comment.

    =========================

    Sir,

    Complain comment were aimed at those who despite knowing all doesn't look into their own mistakes.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    I am also sharing facts with your but wihtout going into deep history .You can read by yourself that you accept my all blame games but want to impose it through your way.

    We are talking about latest updates going around us and you are taking me to world of Indians where US cruelty handled them.Now they both celebrate thanks giving day for your kind information.

    Oh this is possible you want to show me that we still live in stone age era and by chance get modern technology.

    Iran supported hamas due to brutality of Israel and US.

    This way you are supporting my point that when ever you maltreated weak and deprived class it gives way to terrorism and that is same policy adopted by our army under US supervision.

    try to get the data of deals of buying all modern arm technology, nuclear war heads and for developing the concept of insurgency in our soil, all senior military men filled their pockets through commissions and kick backs.

    Even french men were attacked in Karachi if said kick back was not released to our political and miltiary representatives of that time.

    You are right about quoting that stupidity is limit less quality of human minds but we human love to be stupid some time so that wise people like you learn lesson from our stupidities and pass wonderful life without stupid people.

    I am still unable to understand that why are you trying to share my this burden of stupidities since long time ago.

    • Al |

      Nazia: I don't want to impose 'my way' on anyone & specially not on you.

      For 'my kind information' just because they celebrate Thanksgiving does not mean that the US establishment is incapable of committing the same brutalities all over again. More recently look at how Japanese Americans were treated during the 2nd world war in that country. Again a suggestion that go and read a little bit of history before forming your opinion.

      Iran actually backs Hizbollah based out of Lebanon. Hamas has other backers including Saudi Arabia. I don't consider them terrorist organizations. They are fighting for their legitimate rights. My point was that the Iranian regime also medals in other countries internal issues.

      And the corruption you have pointed out, i did not deny it in any of my posts.

      You say: //I am still unable to understand that why are you trying to share my this burden of stupidities since long time ago.//

      First i have to understand what you are trying to say before i can make you understand what you are unable to understand.

      But when you say //”I am more stupid than your expectation…..”// i must say that i FULLY AGREE.

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Al says: – April 7, 2010 at 2:20 pm – There are definitely sympathizers of the taliban within the Pakistani military who support them because of their ideology rather than for any strategic reasons.

    =========================

    Dear Brother,

    All those Scholars [most of them were Deobandis] who went to Afghanistan with General Mahmood [the then ISI Chief] and Prince Turki [Saudi Intelligence Chief] after 911 and before US Attack on Afghanistan to pursue Mullah Omar, were later assassinated. One more thing which should be mentioned here that you may have heard the name of Mufti Abdul Rasheed [A Deobandi Scholar of Karachi], Yousuf Ludihyanvi, and Mufti Shamzai had accepted Masood Azher as their Caliph but later on they regretted that they have taken oath of alleigiance of a "Deviant Masood Azher". Before his death Mufti Abdul Rasheed wrote a detailed letter to the press explaining that Masood is a cheater and he [Abdul Rasheed] regret that he is under his oath. The whole story was published in several Islamic Magazine that these three scholars had withdrawn their oath [because Azher and his organization (as Mufti Rasheed exposed) in Bhatta – Extortion and Embezzlement in Funds] when they became aware of reality. [Story was also published in Monthly Wujood (now closed – Tahir had also served sentence in Jail) by M Tahir (now in Dunya TV) and M Tahir [also exposed Yousuf Kazzab way before in 1997/1998].

    Best Regards

    • Nazia |

      Mughal you as per expectation brought a real picture of our bitter history.

      If I am not wrong maluvi fazalullah was among this group in the way of jihad ul musloomoon.

      Fazullah kept alive for running the swat business of insurgency.Gen mehmmod is in tableeghi jammat making muslims more pious after creating false scenes of human disaster he and his cronies planned on unprivileged call.

      Do you think it was his guilt that had made him like that other wise I have heard his hobbies of wine and women when had mustache like you.

      You have given name of some deobandi scholars who first accepted the caliphship of massod azher and then turned their point of vies.if I am not worng Deobandi group had produced one of fine scholars of subcontinent who translated Quran and Hadith in local languages .

      So I just want to know as you have good knowledge of religious history that what kind of scholars are they who couldn't judge the background of a trained terrorist of ISI.He is buddy of Gen hamid gul and they still enjoy each other company on important matters.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    We proved through our acts that sultan rahee is our ideal hero who can cross all limits of bravery and courage after listening the cries of heroin.Same situation we observed here where cry of lady in trouble was created to justified miltiary stance on forceful combat mission.Our sultan rahees like army men before doing collateral damages to swat forgotten that they had coming here to rescue that girl.

    Where the girl has gone,

    nobody knows but all picked samar to throw spill of anger which is actually depression of failure as in last week two powerful bomb blast have hit the valley again.

    Our people for last year is coming out on streets against highly unreasonable load shedding but sultan rahee is not interested in cries of these effectees.

    Corruption scandals are revealed in all media channels with documentary proofs but again sultan rahee is busy in listening poetry from modern versions of gen Ranis.

    Zardari and his team are crossing all limits of wrong doing but our sultan rahee is busy in Washington meetings.

    So who made and public this movie know the psyche of our sultan rahee very well which is only triggered after hearing scream of feminine type.

    • Al |

      Nazia: Do you think the video was fake?

      FYI the Taliban spokesperson Muslim Khan accepted responsibility when the video came out. The link to that video is given in Samar Minallah's article.

  • Nazia |

    A1

    Its show timing makes it very suspicious.

    Muslim khan and like him like characters accepted the killing of Bhutto.

    can they do it?

    We are in need of thorough investigation.

    I have told you that Samar might be used as transmitter through her close one.

    Taliban did more brutal acts then this simple flogging in Musharraf regime why it was not considered important and touchy.

    Even my father a daring ex army officer who has witnessed beheading in Saudia, couldnt continue to watch utube movies of taliban brutally killing civilians with knives.

    so why our sons of soil who were deputed there for last years couldnt react on that moments.

    • Al |

      Yes i think the timing of the video was planned to have an affect on the population & get them behind the armed forces.

      But i think the video was real. When the taliban are defending it themselves then what have we got to say about it.

      I also think that the timing of this latest 'news' that the video was not real is also planned. This time to get some sympathy for the taliban because the US & Pakistani establishments are preparing for an eventual settlement with them.

      Read this analysis of why this latest piece of news is also planted: http://cafepyala.blogspot.com/2010/04/curious-cas

      I quote from the article:

      // Now, there are a couple or three points to note in this report, which should be glaringly obvious to any half-decent reporter or editor.

      1. There is no byline.

      2. The 'sources' are all anonymous.

      3. Even the 'resident of Swat' who makes these serious claims is not identified.

      These, ladies and gentlemen, are all straightforward clues that the 'report' is what is known in Pakistani journalistic parlance, as a 'plant' or 'planted story……..//

  • Aamir Mughal |

    Nazia says: – April 7, 2010 at 10:43 pm – You have given name of some deobandi scholars who first accepted the caliphship of massod azher and then turned their point of vies.if I am not worng Deobandi group had produced one of fine scholars of subcontinent who translated Quran and Hadith in local languages . So I just want to know as you have good knowledge of religious history that what kind of scholars are they who couldn’t judge the background of a trained terrorist of ISI.

    =========================

    Dear Ms. Nazia,

    Deoband was not even founded when Shah Waliullah Dehelvi translated the Quran in Persian in 1739 and two of his sons namely Shah Rafiuddin and Shah Abdul Qadir translated Quran into Arabic [Fatwa against all three of them was issued by the then Maulvis] and their translation is the basis on which Scholars later translated Quran. Darul Uloon Deoband Saharanpur, Uttar Pradesh, India] was founded in 1866.

    To err is human and three Deobandi Scholars [Ludhiyanvi, Shamzai and Abdul Rasheed] erred in their judgement. It would be appropriate to mention Hadiths of Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] on Scholars.

    Crux of several Authentic Traditions [Hadiths]in Bukhari, Muslim, Mauta Imam Malik, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood, Nisa'i and Ibn-e-Maja on False Scholars:

    "The very first group who would be thrown in hell in the life hereafter would be scholars"

    "There will be a time amongst you when people will choose imam amongst ignorants and there will be no genuine Scholar in those days and Knowledge will be taken back so people will look towards these Ignorant {in literal "JAHIL"} Scholar who would astray people from the right path by issuing Fatwas without any proper knowledge of Islam"

    In the last days there would be people amongst you who will gain the knowledge of Islam just for seeking the world. They will be wearing sheep’s hide to impress people, they will be speaking very softly as if their tongues are made of sugar but their hearts will be worse than Wolves. Allah will say, are you trying to cross Me then Allah will swear upon Himself and will say I will put those people in such an anarchy and confusion that even the brightest among them will be flabbergasted” . {Tirmidhi}.

    Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] through many Companions has said: What I am afraid of after me is an astrayed Scholar, Hypocrites who debate in Quran without knowledge and astrayed Imaams {Yaani Mein Tum par sab say ziyada jis cheese say darta hun woh Alim ki thokar hai, Quran ko lay kar Munafiq ka Jadal Hai aur Gumrah Peshwah hain} [Reference: Sunan Al Darimi and Jamiul Ilm Ibn-e-Barr]

  • Nazia |

    Mughal

    Our state has weak control on religious affairs.

    Our army has overpowered this religious fanaticism.

    Clerics and scholars are regretting after fully backing the terrorists.

    You have fulfilled your duty by quoting the Hadith that indicates the presence of such scholars .

    But you are not giving us clue how to handle the negative impressions and side effects of such mass controllers like scholars.You have already mentioned that those deobandi icons made translation of Quran so even then if they cant distinguish between evil and angel like character then how would you expect from majority mediocre class to understand the depth of religion that always tend toward peace and harmony of system.

    We humans are by nature polytheist whether we accept it or not.Always look for human protection and idols to follow them for reaching GOD Under safe custody.

    So it is big tragedy of nation and any society if its religious and political ideals changing their directions and goals time to time affecting the trends of society too.

    • Aamir Mughal |

      But you are not giving us clue how to handle the negative impressions and side effects of such mass controllers like scholars.

      ======================

      Only Two ways to save ourselves 1 – Repentance [Individual and Collective] 2 – Learn Religion through reading to reach to the truth without the help of Mullah.

  • Nazia |

    Aone

    You have given your two different point of views about that movie

    First you say that it is genuine.

    Then you link it with observation that it is planted story.

    So first kindly decide what is your exact point of view .

    In our disturbed state timings is matter.

    Zardari in each attack by SC remember that his father in law was murdered by jury.He never thought such when he was first husband of state twice in 5 years.

    Taliban always select time of reaction when US has to execute new plan on our soil.

    Osama bin laden picks the time to come on net when there is some calm from suicidal bombers.

    So timing of event is more important than concern who does it.

    • Al |

      I don't know what to say.

      Here is a hint: You don't have to argue with me if we are both saying the same thing.

      Read my comment again:

      I said the TIMING of the video was planned but the video was real.

  • Nazia |

    Repentance should be accompanied by atonement whether by punishment or pay back fully.

    What kind of glimpses of repentance you are sensing in any individual or on collective level around you.

    Going to tableeghi jaamt and hiding place surrounded by same creatures is not part of repentance but running away from sound of guilt.

    In our culture we see do all kinds of crime and then go to hajj, shed your tears and cleanse yourself eternally.

    Or join any charitable organization in the last era of your life .

    If have no stamina and courage for above option then have a long beard or veil on your face and start teaching of Islam to born Muslims.

    That is all you mean by SOP of repentance in our system.

  • Dureen |

    Umm just wondering were these mullah's upset because Gillet was forcing righteous-bearded-mulsim volunteers to shave their beards? What if some of them were non-muslims? And by stopping them to shave at this event means they are going to adapt Sunnah of keeping beard for the rest of their lives?